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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

aljazeera.com

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#571

Post by prmph »

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #494
prmph wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. Those restrictions are in place for a reason, which Hamas has confirmed on October 7th. And, what suffering does this cause exactly? Gaza had an HDI larger than that of many countries not at war, and had areas described as "wealthy". Any close reading of this co…

I don't really feel like clearing up all the half-truths or outright lies here, but I wanted to just call out one: > with the ultimate goal of reclaiming land from the river to the sea, per their own charter. The "from the river to the sea" is the language in the Likud charter, the party ruling Israel and dropping thousands of 2-ton bombs on Gaza right now. The popular chant "from the river to the sea palestine will…

Are you claiming ignorance of the fact that the Hamas charter originally called for the liquidation of Israel? This is common knowledge. Granted, they have revised it recently to tone down the genocidal language, but I don't think anybody should be deceived about what their intentions are.

As the history of the slogan "from the river to the sea", please read on it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea, it has little to do with Likud.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#572

Post by asylteltine »

l3mure wrote: post #510
asylteltine wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Hamas intentionally mixes their forces with civilians This is the entire point of mandatory Israeli military service and aggressive illegal settlements/settlers protected by the IDF.

[flagged]

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#573

Post by stainablesteel »

i've not heard from anyone on the anti-israeli side what israel should have done after 10/7 other than "leave"

its just such a confusing discussion, what kind of retaliation would someone of that mindset find appropriate for those 1000+ killed/tortured/raped from the initial attack? i can't find any steelmanned positions of this

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#574

Post by kamikazeturtles »

edanm wrote: post #466
kamikazeturtles wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that same logic you can justify the civilian deaths of almost any conflict. Every war crime will be justified. Japanese internment? Justified. Hiroshima? Justified. Agent Orange in Vietnam? Justified. Genocide of 2million Filipinos by the US Army? Justified.... It's exhausting just thinking about these atrocities so I'll take a break

No, because there's a huge difference between deliberately targeting civilians vs collateral damage. Genocide, which is the intent and actions to destroy an entire people, is never justified, because it presupposes you'll target and kill many civilians to achieve it.

True, the distinction between targeting civilians and collateral damage is significant and morally relevant. However, it's important to recognize that even actions labeled as 'collateral damage' can sometimes reflect a disregard for civilian life. While genocide, the intentional destruction of a people, is unequivocally condemnable, we must also scrutinize military operations that, though not aimed at civilians, consistently result in substantial civilian casualties. Such outcomes might indicate a failure to adequately value and protect innocent lives. Just as deliberate attacks on civilians are never justifiable, so too are military strategies that do not prioritize minimizing harm to civilians. Both scenarios reflect a moral failing in respecting the sanctity of human life.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#575

Post by prmph »

mikojan wrote: post #537
prmph wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, Gaza had been described as an open air prison for almost 2 decades because its borders, imports, sea usage, had all been controlled by Israel. Those restrictions are in place for a reason, which Hamas has confirmed on October 7th. And, what suffering does this cause exactly? Gaza had an HDI larger than that of many countries not at war, and had areas described as "wealthy". Any close reading of this co…

> Under such circumstances, what should Israel do? Pack up their bags and leave? That is exactly what they should do: End the occupation.

By "Pack up their bags and leave" I meant, do Israelis have to vacate their country altogether as a condition of peace?

I understand Israel left Gaza in 2005, so I'm not sure what occupation is being referred to here. If you mean the blockade, don't you think Hamas laying down arms and renouncing violence would be a good first step towards convincing the Israelis to lift the blockade?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#576

Post by xg15 »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #565
xg15 wrote: post #525

I don't want to start another top-level thread on this topic, as it is contentious enough already - but just as an aside, the UN General Assembly just passed a (symbolic) resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire with 153 to 10, an even stronger majority than the last resolution. Of course UN votes are always subject to all kinds of political considerations and power dynamics and the saying "nations have no frien…

[flagged]

> The UN doesn't speak for the world, regardless of what they may claim.

That might be true for Guterres but not for the GA. The delegations that voted were not directed by the UN but by their respective countries. No one forced them to vote for this.

Israel itself gets its legitimacy from the UN resolution in 1949.

> But why would anyone ask them to cease fire against an enemy that won't return the favour?

My understanding of the term "ceasefire" is that it always applies to both sides - so of course during such a ceasefire Hamas would have to stop the rocket attacks as well.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#577

Post by [deleted] »

asylteltine wrote: post #486
blaufast wrote: post #437

I suspect a very large number of people are too smart to speak up, but also resentful of the forces that work to prevent actual nuanced dialogue. That's certainly the sentiment in my bubble. As somebody who isn't fond of the idea of an ethnostate and sees atrocities coming from all of the actors here, I don't feel comfortable speaking up due to the lack of nuance in public forums.

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#578

Post by metta2uall »

nvm0n2 wrote: post #550
metta2uall wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The IDF actually can avoid the vast majority of civilian casualties - they are the ones choosing to drop a huge number of bombs. They can do their job of defending Israel by actually protecting the border, and go after Hamas in a much slower & more precise way. See this article from Israel for an in-depth examination of IDF tactics: https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-cal...

It's a ground invasion in which they tell civilians to evacuate beforehand. How much slower and more precise do you want them to get, given that Hamas is maybe 10% of the population (so their supporter base is clearly much larger) and there's no clear distinction between fighters and the rest deliberately? It's hard to imagine specifics. Israel can't simply let them launch rockets forever. Iron Dome isn't 100% effect…

The vast majority civilians are getting killed & buried alive due to the aerial bombings where the IDF is trying to assassinate members of Hamas - they obviously don't give any warnings for such strikes.

And the current offensive isn't a response to the rockets, which have been fired for years, but to the Hamas ground invasion, which the IDF should have been prepared for 24/7 & could have completely defeated.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#579

Post by nvm0n2 »

jmprspret wrote: post #560
prewett wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you expect Israel to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Hamas' explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Israel, and they are right next door. An analogous situation would be if some member(s) of the family next door publicly wanted you dead, and randomly shot at you, your family, and your house. But you don't know…

How do you expect Palestine to defend itself against an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry? Doing nothing is not an option: Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine, and they are right next door. The reality is, there is no good solution. Because Israel has engineered it that way, not Palestine, not Hamas.

> Israel's explicit, public goal is the annihilation of Palestine

No it is not. Israel got its own people out of the Gaza strip years ago and hasn't let them back in since. Israel supplies Gaza with water and electricity because Hamas prefers to spend its resources on building tunnel networks and rockets instead of power stations and water treatment works. It is also militarily superior and has nuclear weapons. If they actually decided to "annihilate" Gaza it would be a smoking pile of glass tomorrow, as the military capability is there.

> an enemy that lives next door and is indistinguishable from the citizenry

The IDF wear uniforms and are easily identifiable.

> Doing nothing is not an option

They have lots of options, including making peace with Israel. Step 1 would be to replace the government committed to its destruction, with one that is willing to talk instead of launch rockets. But the Palestinians seem to support the existing strategy.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#580

Post by Qem »

drc500free wrote: post #352
reissbaker wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP but Netanyahu is living on borrowed time — he won't be replaced in the middle of the war, but even Likud is having private talks about who replaces him once it's over. I would give very high probability that he is replaced well before his term is up.

Unfortunately, given Bibi's single-minded focus on staying in power, "he won't be replaced in the middle of the war" guarantees that he will try to make this a forever war.

> "he won't be replaced in the middle of the war" guarantees that he will try to make this a forever war.

He's already in escalation with Lebanon: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/violence-escalates...

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