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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#571

Post by Taywee »

quotemstr wrote: post #396
GuB-42 wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting. First the thing with the code of conduct and all that, that I think distracts from the technical questions. It is important to be inclusive, as not to exclude people who could make valuable contributions, but if it becomes a topic of argument, then it becomes counter-productive. The second is the "rewrite it in Rust" crowd. I mean, no langu…

> While the language itself looks fine, I find the community a bit off-putting I have wondered now and then about how the Rust community culture might have damaged the language. In particular, I've said for many years that Rust botched error handling by eschewing exceptions yet including panics anyway, leading to a doubling of the error handling infrastructure (you pay for both error objects and stack unwinding suppo…

Actually relying on panics for unwinding in any way is not encouraged in any way, and compiling with `panic = 'abort'` is really common, and completely removes all stack unwinding support.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#572

Post by lazyasciiart »

snek_case wrote: post #386
lyu07282 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…

[flagged]

I’m pretty sure that “think of the children” is a position taken at least as often by people who describe themselves as anti-woke, such as DeSantis and his “saying gay is illegal” idiocy.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#573

Post by di4na »

rgbgraph wrote: post #458
di4na wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Fair point, and one I needed to reflect on. I think in my past, whenever I've been in a leadership position over a group of people, we've all been there to achieve some goal. We were all cooperating to reach the same end -- and those with a different opinion of that "end" were excluded. I have also been on the opposite side of this: I've been a member of groups whose goals I did not agree with. And no amount of civil…

Something you may have missed here. What if the shared goal and belief of the group, was one that in practice is also exclusionary?

In that sense, even if the tone stays civil in group, the problem is still there.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#575

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

mwcampbell wrote: post #330
naasking wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen [...] But if he said that in no uncertain terms [...] he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. So they need reverse psychology to express anger at injustice because of the Code of Conduct? What is this world we're building?

I'm tempted to add a CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md to my main project repo with the following: Be direct. No bullshit. Don't worry about offending anyone, including the project leader; just say what needs to be said about the technical merits of whatever is being discussed. We're all here to [insert project goal]; let's do so with a minimum of drama. But it's probably better to continue to not have a CoC, and just quietly lead…

There is a writers’ Facebook group which states its moderation policy like this: “the group is moderated very lightly. We are not your parents; if you have a disagreement, work it out among yourselves.” I like this policy.

And it kinda sorta works.

That’s not saying that CoCs were not a kind of response to some pathological behaviors in online communities: you often are going to get either socially inept man-children, or people on the spectrum, and there are kindergarten-level conflicts. You get programmers who attach themselves to their work too much, have very strong opinions, and often will treat a set of rules as a puzzle you need to game, without much concern towards any consequences.

But my oh my, do lots of popular CoCs look like solution for that problem invented by the same kind of socially inept man-children who are the part of the problem. They likely have read the word “empathy” in a dictionary, but don’t understand what it means in their bones.

I have an even less charitable theory of what CoCs might be about, really, but for now I’m applying Hanlon’s razor and stick to what I’ve stated above.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#577

Post by coldtea »

rgbgraph wrote: post #458
di4na wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Fair point, and one I needed to reflect on. I think in my past, whenever I've been in a leadership position over a group of people, we've all been there to achieve some goal. We were all cooperating to reach the same end -- and those with a different opinion of that "end" were excluded. I have also been on the opposite side of this: I've been a member of groups whose goals I did not agree with. And no amount of civil…

>We were all cooperating to reach the same end -- and those with a different opinion of that "end" were excluded.

If you mean those with a different opinion about the overall "end" of the project, this would make sense.

If you mean those with different opinions about any part of it, like how the project should implement reflection for example, it makes absolutely no sense to exclude them.

This would translate into an authoritative culture, where everything is predetermined, and no dialogue is allowed, except perhaps for trivial matters.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#578

Post by ok123456 »

mwcampbell wrote: post #330
naasking wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the OP is actually saying is that he's extremely angry and pissed off that this was allowed to happen [...] But if he said that in no uncertain terms [...] he might fall afoul of the official Code of Conduct for being aggressive and threatening towards other contributors. So they need reverse psychology to express anger at injustice because of the Code of Conduct? What is this world we're building?

I'm tempted to add a CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md to my main project repo with the following: Be direct. No bullshit. Don't worry about offending anyone, including the project leader; just say what needs to be said about the technical merits of whatever is being discussed. We're all here to [insert project goal]; let's do so with a minimum of drama. But it's probably better to continue to not have a CoC, and just quietly lead…

CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md but it's just the Marine Core code of conduct.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#579

Post by jbaber »

ra1231963 wrote: post #445
lyu07282 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought "rust culture" came out of this sort of super SJW/woke culture of mozilla? Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. There was also the recent easily preventable drama [1] around the trademark guidelines some people left rust over. I don't really find any of this drama co…

> Nothing against that sort of mindset in theory, but it sometimes leads to a certain irrational hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies. Really? Nothing against a thing that leads to hypersensitive intolerant mob behavior and authoritarian/anti democratic tendencies!?

Yes. Nothing against it in theory, but it leads to stuff they don't like. Did you read the whole comment?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#580

Post by Y_Y »

infamouscow wrote: post #415
snek_case wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think it parallels the Christian Crusades where crusaders believed they had a moral duty to reclaim the holy land and convert people to Christianity, causing enormous damage in the process. Similarly, the Rust™ ecosystem largely believes they have a moral imperative to replace all software for the cause of memory safety. Much like priests hidden away in their sacristies, the Rust™ community meets my criticisms with…

As much as I found this funny and insightful, I think that you misrepresent the crusades (and perhaps, by extension, Rust). In my partially-informed opinion, conversion wasn't a major goal, even though people in conquered lands were given the option to convert and integrate. It was more important to claim "holy" land for Christians and make a show of owning and controlling the significant territory.

Whether or not Rustaceans want to banish C people to the desert to write printer drivers or to commit apostasy and assimilate I am not qualified to say.

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