More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships • Hacker News Board

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#571

Post by majormajor » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:03 AM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #567

mym1990 wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, just like things such as slavery, Native American history, colonialism was glossed over in US History so that the great achievements could be celebrated, and we didn't have to actually think about who paid the price.

When were these parts skipped in American education? As a high school student in mid-1990s, I was exposed to these a-plenty, not to mention college.

My 1990s Texas high school was very... circumspect... in terms of how it talked about manifest destiny, slavery, and reconstruction.

The majority of our history classes also frequently got bogged down before we could get to the civil rights movement and really have to go into the dirty little details of what the post-Civil-War US looked like.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#572

Post by majormajor » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:05 AM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #54

azinman2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also grows the intellectual souls, exposing people to far more depth of thought. It also builds professional networks. If a person is smart enough to receive it, more education is almost always good. Of course money is a factor, and schools have gotten insanely expensive. I’m glad to hear that more people are finding alternative routes - it shouldn’t be that everyone needs college because quite frankly many career…

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

> Eg I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis.

It is amazing how many people here are accepting with and agreeing with this statement with no citations at all.

No links to syllabuses of syncophant-led culturally-censored classes.

No links to anything about old courses getting cancelled or changed.

Just a "everybody knows" claim that is either believed or not depending on previous biases.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#573

Post by thethimble » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:14 AM UTC

Anon84 wrote: post #538

Today, colleges and universities enroll about 15 million undergraduate students, while companies employ about 800,000 apprentices. In the past decade, college enrollment has declined by about *15%*, while the number of apprentices has increased by more than *50%*, according to federal data and Robert Lerman, a labor economist at the Urban Institute and co-founder of Apprenticeships for America. If A drops by 2.25M an…

How is this a stretch? As a percentage of the demographic population, A is decreasing and B is increasing.

The fact that there’s fewer people in the current demographic cohort accounts for much of the “missing” ~2m students.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#574

Post by _gabe_ » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:22 AM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #370

xyzelement wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are referring to something on one hand very valuable, on the other hand it's very easy to graduate college without learning that, and I think colleges themselves in recent decades are pivoting away from. A hundred+ years ago when "almost nobody" went to college, college was a place for those hungry and willing to sacrifice for intellectual growth. Nowadays college is a baseline consumer good that "almost…

> I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures If we are going to be collegiate, let's critically examine our own posts. What is that based on? It doesn't match what I know.

If you want to be collegiate this literally happened a year ago[0]:

> When Professor Stuart Reges challenged the University of Washington’s position on land acknowledgements, administrators punished him, undermining his academic freedom

But don't worry, you don't have to go so far as critically teaching about all the aspects of different cultures to risk being accused as a racist on college campuses. I also remember the racist rock from a couple years ago[1]:

> The University of Wisconsin removed a 42-ton boulder from its Madison campus Friday after complaints from students of color who called the rock a symbol of racism.

[0]: https://www.thefire.org/news/lawsuit-professor-sues-universi...

[1]: https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/09/us/chamberlin-rock-removed-un...

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#575

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:38 AM UTC

InvaderFizz wrote: post #105

truetraveller wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you do WGU? How long did getting a degree take start to finish? Did you have pre-credits?

I did go to WGU. It took me way too long. Over 4 years because I put almost zero effort in and did most everything at the end of the 6 month term. I wasn't much motivated to do the courses as I was battling depression, dealing with a wife and child with health issues, and was the sole breadwinner. I would estimate that I put in less than 500 hours total towards my degree. I had like 15 pre-credits.

[deleted]

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#576

Post by cperciva » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:39 AM UTC

zamfi wrote: post #562

cperciva wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me rephrase that. An Oxford first is equivalent to summa cum laude from an Ivy League. Yes, the standard for graduate admission around the world (and also other things, like undergraduate research awards in Canada) is upper second.

Not the same — Oxford first means top third of the class, roughly. Summa at Harvard is top 5%, a much higher bar.

Yes. I think the top 1/3 of Oxford undergrads are on par with the top 5% of Harvard undergrads.

This is not true of other places which award Firsts.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#577

Post by ckosidows » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:39 AM UTC

pinkmuffinere wrote: post #492

phist_mcgee wrote: post #483

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people can do good things, but in an exploitative manner?. Earning billions off the labor of others and then giving back is still not moral in my eyes. And I think it's an exception to the rule any way that any in the capital class produce a net benefit to society.

I don't think profit necessarily implies exploitation. People could make billions while also helping the labor class, and then give back to society. Think of things that improve safety, efficiency, or extend human life -- fire extinguishers, farm implements, some medicines, etc. I'm sure people make money off of these, but I'm still thankful to them. You may be right that most of the capital class is not a net benefi…

I rather disagree and think this discourse is both beneficial and necessary. This comment really feels dubious and is the exact definition of the Noble Lie.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#578

Post by lotsofpulp » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:40 AM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #548

lotsofpulp wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Just because Obama may have ended one policy doesn’t mean they aren’t backstopped by the government. Yes, it does. Since 2010, a lender will not be paid by the government if the borrower defaults. >the debt cannot be dispelled through bankruptcy Yes, they can. https://www.investopedia.com/how-to-file-student-loan-bankru...

Aren't most student loans already loaned directly by Sally Mae / the government? Private loans aren't the issue afaik.

Yes, I wrote that in my original response above.

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#579

Post by somenameforme » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:41 AM UTC

bumby wrote: post #524

pdntspa wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it was the one area I was familiar with. The others... not so much. But if I was in classes contemporary to the test and had paid attention, I probably would have.

I think that was part of the OPs point: in general, we aren’t familiar with all that they were testing for, so cherry-picking the domain you feel comfortable answering kinda proves their point rather than negating it. Not that it really proves anything in the larger scope they seemed to imply. At least, not anymore than losing on the old show “ are you smarter than a fifth grader? ”

All of us talking here are probably adults, probably substantially higher performing on average, living in the age of the internet where information for study can be trivially obtained, and discussing a test that was a benchmark for 8th grade education. What percent of incoming 9th graders today do you think could perform at all reasonably on that test?

Most people know that college education has become dramatically "simplified", but fewer seem aware that this is also true of nearly all of our education systems. And it's all for the same reason. When education was not required nor expected, what education that did exist was able to excel and push a group of people who genuinely wanted to learn in ways that are not really possible today, outside of things like elite preparatory academies.

And I think this lesson is extremely important when beginning to think about how education might be reformed. It's easy to say that secondary (or even primary) education should be more sophisticated, without considering the implications of that on the student body. You can't really have widespread exceptional education standards and the expectation that most people should be able to achieve those standards. This is why reforming education is a far bigger task than the current idea of 'throw more money at it' could ever solve.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_...

Re: More students are turning away from college and toward apprenticeships

#580

Post by TimTheTinker » Sun, Mar 19, 2023, 4:41 AM UTC

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #544

rootusrootus wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had a class that really critically analyzed native American cultures. Today the class would be considered racist, it would have to a priori be an admiration of those cultures, rather than a critical analysis. It's amazing that now we're getting hit from both directions in this regard. The left would like minorities treated with kid gloves, and now the right wants to muzzle schools that would say anything critical…

Culture is a shared fiction of unity and greatness that enables great civilizations to overcome otherwise inevitable tribal warfare. So Native Americans and Pilgrims sat down together for a Thanksgiving feast with Turkey and mashed potatoes. Should we teach this to children despite there being more to the story? Well it depends, do we want descendants of Pilgrims and Native Americans to sit down for a Thanksgiving fe…

> Where left gets it wrong is treating children like adults when it comes to gore and sexuality and adults like children when it comes to free speech.

And denying the primacy of objective reality (as best we know it, subject to intellectual inquiry and criticism) over subjective experience (which they say is inviolate and unquestionable).