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Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

robkhenderson.substack.com

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Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#571

Post by runsWphotons »

btilly wrote: post #375
erikpukinskis wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic hypotheses for the pro-affirmative action crowd are: 1) Black people are not actually less “good at stuff”, we just have a habit of defining “stuff” in a way that excludes the things that black people are more likely to excel at. And, 2) Where black people do statistically worse, it’s not due to any innate difference, it’s because socially accepted “normal” support systems are more useful for people with ch…

Sorry, but I take offense at this "it is all a matter of opinion and all opinions are equally valid" BS. 1) It is trivially true that if you define your measure right, you can make anyone succeed. For example black people are better at looking like black people. But we try to define "stuff" in a way that correlates with ability to do economically useful tasks. There are excellent reasons to do so. 2) You are ignoring…

I doubt the funding for black and white students really differs that much. You can find many articles claiming this but a lot of this seems to depend how you count and who is counting. The washington post or NYT will run an article claiming huge gaps, while the heritage foundation says it is broadly equal (https://www.heritage.org/education/report/the-myth-racial-di...). Some of the best funded schools in the whole country are black schools. America is littered with failed projects to better minority performance by increasing school expenditures (here is one: https://www.cato.org/commentary/americas-most-costly-educati...). The tendency of blacks to go to prison doesn't really seem to have to do with the things you mentioned, at least not solely. For example, young blacks whose parents are in the top 1% of earners, who certainly do not grow up in bad neighbourhoods with terrible schools or targeting by police, seem to commit crime at rates similar to whites from families earning <40,000$/year (raj chetty). And none of this explains how policies that help Nigerians get into Harvard make sense as a means of helping poor American blacks.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#572

Post by cyanydeez »

whack wrote: post #120

The following paragraphs were especially powerful: > The chattering class is using poor kids as pawns to eliminate standardized testing. Which helps their own kids. Rich kids who “don’t test well.” But they know how to strategically boost their GPAs, get recommendation letters from important people, stack their resumes with extracurriculars, and use the right slogans in their admissions essays. They have “polish.” >…

Meh, meaningless. Those kids get in regardless.

The SAT has flaws, like AIs trained on criminal records has flaws.

Getting rid of a flawed test won't suddenly make rich privilege suddenly increase

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#573

Post by runsWphotons »

btilly wrote: post #564
hijghula wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You accept that some people run faster ("uncontroversial") but somehow it is "unknowable" whether some people think faster?

No. That there are differences in thinking speed is verifiable. We can also verify that differences in thinking speed between individuals has a large component due to genetics, and also another large component due to environment. Everything from diet to the quality of parental interactions in early childhood. What we can't determine is to whether genetics contributes to the differences in thinking speed between group…

maybe we should just let the smartest individuals into the best colleges

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#574

Post by neerajsi »

hijghula wrote: post #548
btilly wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Separating out confounders is easier said than done. When you look at the performance of black people raised in white families they are still exposed to media, teachers, and peers who have expectations of them based on appearance. Even with that population, racism remains a confounder. Likewise while you can look at historical Jews as a poor population with high IQ, you have the confounder that even then Jews placed…

Culture largely flows from genetics, so I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.

Can you elaborate on your statement?

I think it is more likely that culture drives genetics. If you have a group whose culture favors intermarriage, where marriage is encouraged and even arranged between families with intellectual success, and which enables the resulting couples to have many children, that would tend to drive the genetics of the group.

Sexual selection is tied to culture.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#575

Post by ajkjk »

WalterBright wrote: post #439
jadengeller wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the data supports this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/college-mobilit... I do think it's true that Caltech students are all very passionate about STEM, so the average family wealth is less apparent.

> the data Keep in mind that I attended in the 70s. Nothing stays the same. I have little idea if Caltech is the same today as then, and rather doubt it. One obvious change is their mission statement has changed drastically. In the 1978 "Caltech Information for Students" pg 105 it says simply: > The primary purpose of the undergraduate school of the California Institute of Technology, as stated by the Trustees, is "t…

How could they keep that in mind if you never said it ..

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#576

Post by ClumsyPilot »

nemo44x wrote: post #497
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a way to circulate the elites Thr proper terminology is Sovial Mobility > arbitrary things like sex or race can’t work They work as a litmus test-> if you are massively excluding someome, probably something in the process is fucked.

Sure, I’m just using terms that Gaetano Mosca uses when describing elite theory. As for litmus test, again sure. But accounting for cultural and biological differences matters. There’s a reason Asians are over represented in certain things due to a culture that values education. Or men tending to distribute differently than women. And many other things. It would be naive to believe any difference in outcomes is purel…

> But accounting for cultural and biological differences matters

This could mean different things to different people

Lets imagine we have a perfectly objective, merit based hiring/admissions process. We could still have proffeshions with 1% women, or 1% blacks, etc.

This could be caused by culture, say no women want to be bricklayers or software developers. Or men spent insane amount of effort, like more than is logical.

There is still a valid debate, what do we do about this. Maybe you should not just 'let it play out'.

Like we should hypothetically reward people that work hard.

But recently we had some poor intern at Goldman literally die from overwork. He worked himself to death, died for like £30K salary, what a waste.

Should we really reward that? Should the company face some consequences if this keeps happening?

Obviouslt we kniw 'Back in the day' culture for women was such, that they would not be prepared, in skills and in attitude, to compete with men in education or employment.

If we never went for cultural change, it would still be that way.

It think it's really important that at early stages in life more people are given a chance to change course. That's what educational institutions are for.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#577

Post by faeriechangling »

htag wrote: post #273
faeriechangling wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The system of accommodating learning disabilities is a grift, I had a few while always being a strong tester who tended to finish tests early. The “accommodation” I always got was extra time which was extremely baffling. Extra time in particular was given out like candy for no reason. Harvard students having learning disabilities that warrant extra time on tests is a fucking joke, how delusional must one be to think…

Learning disabilities are a type of neurodevelopmental disorder in which a student that is of otherwise average of above average intelligence struggle with a specific type of material, commonly reading (dyslexia) or basic math (dyscalculia). The most effective treatment is early remediation, in which students in primary education are identified and given extra lessons and exercises on their weakness to help make them…

>A person cannot have a learning disability and be below average in intelligence by definition.

Very aware of this, which essentially means that learning disabilities are a privilege for kids who are ALREADY ADVANTAGED over the other students, and yet a child with a 120IQ and dysgraphia gets to take 50% more time on their test than a kid with 80IQ basically without question, and if they press the issue they can probably get double time. That's my main issue. You need to be below 70IQ typically to be considered to have an intellectual disability.

You know, because that's fair. It's an "accommodation" for a student who has already gotten higher grades than another student to one day be pulled into a doctors office, have it explained that they have this horrible problem, and now get 50% more time on tests than somebody they were already a solid grade point ahead of, a child who statistically we can predict will live their entire lives with higher socioeconomic status and higher quality of life already!

When I noticed how a student who always got worse grades than me, who got no accommodations, I always saw him studying after school in the library and eventually realised "he must he here this every day for hours" I felt "wow this system is so fucking fair - because I lack ability, unlike him who definitionally cannot have a learning disability as he's below average intelligence, so he needs to do a harder version of the tests that I do".

Extra time on exams especially a ridiculous number like 50% is the more ridiculous accommodation in all but the most extreme cases. I got 50% extra time for dysgraphia when I was leaving tests with written essay portions early - maybe to be fair it could have taken me say 20% extra time to write. Also - despite my issues being specific to handwriting - I still got the same accommodation for computerised exams! What a fair and balanced accommodation only an ignorant person would question. I was diagnosed with a disability by a doctor so the accommodation HAS to make sense ten years later in a totally different context!

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#578

Post by CJefferson »

mrangle wrote: post #199
IshKebab wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Legacy gets one looked at I'm not that familiar with the US legacy system but even if it is just "we'll definitely take a look at your application" that isn't competing on even ground is it? It might not guarantee you a place but it's clearly an unfair advantage.

No one is disputing the fact that there are advantages to being legacy, at least in terms of giving the application a hard look so as not to unduly disappoint donors and other people in the "club" that is the entire reason that non-legacy candidates want in. Versus say a public school (American) candidate who gets filtered out earlier because they graduated in the middle of their class. I don't recall anyone promisin…

You were the one who started suggesting that "legacy" was "woke", which you are not. Now you seem to have switched to defending it.

Legacy isn't fairness "down to the most minuscule detail" it is a significant part of admissions procedures, written into the rules. It would be reduce the complexity of admissions to simply throw out all legacy-related text. If it indeed provides no help to those legacy students, surely that's a win-win for everyone?

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#579

Post by swearwolf »

analog31 wrote: post #499
rayiner wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm experiencing this first hand. My family immigrated here from Bangladesh. Unlike much of my family, my dad had a college-degree required job lined up, and we ended up pretty comfortable with him on a GS-scale job and my mom selling furniture. Thanks to the SATs, my brother and I both ended up breaking into industries (banking, law) that until relatively recently were good old boy's clubs. Now that I have kids at i…

An amusing contrast, the public high school where my mom taught, had a week off for deer hunting. It was that, or teach to an empty classroom.

Pennsylvania? First day of buck season was always a holiday for us.

Re: Dropping the SAT requirement is a luxury belief

#580

Post by neerajsi »

moomoo11 wrote: post #466
jcranmer wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes I don’t give a shit about homework, I understand the material which is why I’m slaying each test. I hated that about college. We are adults. I’m paying to get an education, why the fuck is homework 20% of the grade? It’s practice, for people who don’t get the material. So what you're admitting is that you are willing to not to do required parts of your job because you don't feel they're important. If you go out…

Homework being worth 20% is dumb for school. Besides I worked the entire time in college to pay for college. Being penalized because I don’t have time to do homework without which I can’t pay for school helps nobody. I don’t think I ever got anything lower than a B on an exam, and nothing lower than A on a final/midterm/project. And yeah, homework is for people who need it. Work and school are totally different one y…

The point of homework is to help you learn the material. Okay, you didn't happen to need it. The point of _requiring_ the homework is so that the students who do need it actually do it and get something from the class. It has to be worth enough for they typicals to not total shirk it.
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