Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students • Hacker News Board

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#571

Post by BobbyJo » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 8:47 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #551

BobbyJo wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing well in college is a great measure of how well you'll do in college, and subsequently, many good schools will accept mid degree transfers of undergraduate students who might not have done well in high school. I don't think it's viable to use that to replace the SAT and other current evaluation metrics, however.

I guess my point is, why not just shove all the students into a Community College a-like for the beginning of their undergrad? With the following features: - Open enrollment - Cheap - Can drop out and retry later without any penalty - Entry into the final two years is granted based on first two year performance, state schools are guaranteed entry, and privates get to be selective based on major(s), student performanc…

I mean, if the route makes sense for you, it's there right now, and if you want to and are able to get into a bigger school without that, why not do that instead? Is there a benefit from forcing all students to funnel through a CC?

It seems to me everything you want kids to do they can do today, they just aren't forced to do it. I got a scholarship for a state U, so it was actually just as cheap for me to do that as opposed to a CC (maybe cheaper since I had dorms available to me at the state school).

> Students actually get an education rather than studying for a mostly useless test.

I don't think the test is useless. A lot of the things you do on the SAT you have to do in those Gen. Ed. classes, so it seems to me it overlaps considerably with the classes you are proposing they take at a CC. That being said, it's hard for me to imagine the Gen. Ed. classes at a CC aren't as useless as anything else considering my experience with that at the U. I went to.

> or take more time to "figure out" what they want to really major in without it costing hundreds of thousands of dollars

Plenty of schools are significantly cheaper than that. The university I went to was about the same cost as a CC as my brother went to (granted he went to a CC in California and I went to a U. in Florida). That said, I do think students that are in the boat of wanting to go to a super expensive school, that they'll need loans to attend, should definitely get their Gen. Ed. credits from a cheaper school if possible. It's a waste of money to pay private school prices for "Algebra 1" or "Art History 1".

> Also, as I've gotten older, and realized that tests like the SAT are just a product offered by a company, and not some Federal standard, I've started to view those kinds of tests as more of a racket than a real filter.

Being offered by a private company doesn't make it a racket. Schools are free to consider it in their admissions process or not since it's private, but most choose to because it's useful in the selection process (as evidenced by this story).

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#572

Post by LawTalkingGuy » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 8:53 PM UTC

macrolocal wrote: post #136

nerdponx wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately I feel convinced that it's a passing fad. I just hope that the pendulum does not swing too far the other way.

I worry about illiberalism becoming more prominent on the left and right.

Liberal has been somewhat taken over by a cross of libertine and anarchist, who say basically that liberalism is liberal it can't be exclusionary and therefore they're as valid a liberal as Locke. They've then used "liberal" as a rallying cry and a shield while they push a lot of illiberal policies.

Actual liberals need to field a bit of a defense against this encroachment, and in language the public can understand. "No, XYZ is not [a liberal action] because ..."

I fear this more than a backlash because it speaks in our name. Our usual political opponents reacting to us at least openly enact their own policies and messages and leave our voices and our message unmolested.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#573

Post by sn9 » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 9:00 PM UTC

matai_kolila wrote: post #428

zdragnar wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'll certainly have more time to study than they will for extracurricular activities, social clubs, volunteering and all of the other "soft" ways kids pad out their college applications. In terms of fairness across racial and economic strata, standardized tests like the ACT and SAT are the fairest ways to judge college applications.

ACT and SAT measure free time as much as they measure anything else, which overall is exceptionally little. And I would very much love to live in a world where the sum total possible things a child has to worry about are extracurriculars or studying. Good lord what a better place we’d live in if that were true…

This seems contradictory given many of the "top" students who fill up the top universities frequently have both really good scores as well as incredible amounts of extracurriculars.

You'd expect there to be a tension if ACT/SAT scores measured free time.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#574

Post by onetimeusename » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 9:07 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #561

onetimeusename wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a bit like saying that there is no such thing as Asians? Both are still used for admissions it seems. I don't think WASPs have any influence on the admissions policy at Harvard and I have seen no evidence that they are over-represented there. Others have pointed out who are. I could go on about US history, immigration, and WASPs but its better to be brief. I think they lost their power. That better fits th…

Who said WASPs are racist? As a group, they’re probably the least racist people on the planet. Their conflict with Asians and Jews isn’t about race, but culture and worldview.

FWIW I don't think that Harvard is explicitly discriminating against Asians in order to preserve WASPishness as alleged.

It's likely that if explicit racial discrimination is taking place, it's more for pragmatism. The Black and Hispanic student body % shall not be reduced. The country is still ~60% white but the white student body % has been reduced dramatically over the last decade. That trend will continue but it's not pragmatic to do it all at once. Nothing like the scale of immigration in the US has happened ever in history. The top 0.01% of populations > 1B in Asia can move to the US and within one generation achieve elite status and that's still more than enough to fill every spot at Harvard.

Meanwhile, Harvard remains a seat of major power in places like DC and corporations and law schools and science. There are far more elites on the planet than there are seats at Harvard so it's likely to cause major tension in the future and my best guess is Harvard is being pragmatic and slowly reducing the white population as it increases the Asian %. Who knows what the Jews do? Maybe claim victim status and get a guaranteed seat. Since Harvard is a gateway to power, it's likely this is going to be a source of major tension in the future.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#575

Post by LawTalkingGuy » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 9:20 PM UTC

themitigating wrote: post #538

LawTalkingGuy wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You provided a link to a Canadian program. If you don't have other sources then why do you think it happens in the us Because the cities literally follow the same public policy. Don't arrest for "simple usage", camping on the streets is allowed, etc. They're getting advice from the same people. But yes, the USA does not that I know, have vending machines for drugs yet, that's still afaik a Canadian thing. In the US…

"Your googling fingers are busted but the ones you use to complain are working?" It's not my job in a debate to provide evidence for your arguments "Lol, so sorry the world doesn't end at your borders." We are discussing American politics

> We are discussing American politics

We're also discussing drugs and the lib/con divide which aren't in the article either. I didn't respond to you originally, you responded to me which means you adopt the discussion at that point - or did you intend to reply elsewhere?

Also, this is how you stay uninformed. Refusing to look to countries who are a few years ahead of you on a policy cycle. Drugs are drugs no matter the country.

> [not my job] to provide evidence for your arguments

You don't have to. I fully supported my argument, it's not my fault you can't read Canadian.

It's as valid for me to quote Vancouver as a model for SF and LA as it was for Vancouver to reference Amsterdam twenty years ago.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#576

Post by random314 » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 9:55 PM UTC

pannSun wrote: post #562

samatman wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know how linear changes in a score map to rarity of that score, then yeah, that's strange. If you do, you probably did ok on the SAT.

Why don't you teach me? How are SAT scores distributed, that raising the mean by 175, from 966 to 1141, does not change the area above the Ivy League admission cutoff, but raising it by another 75 points to 1216, increases that area by a factor of 6.6x? Certainly not by the normal normal distribution - unless there were truly dramatic differences in the standard deviation. Do you have any evidence that there are, and…

The fact that you haven't mentioned standard deviation shows that you don't know how a normal distribution works.

Moreover, you are talking about "admission rate" which you haven't clearly defined.

Also, the normal distribution is a law of averages - that does not apply here. You have to use the actual distribution of data, not the normal distribution of averages.

If you want to make a proper statistical argument you must have the acceptance ratio at a given college for every race for a particular SAT score (say a SAT score of 1250) Any other data is just muddling signal with noise.

In fact, the paper that you linked does just that

https://www.ednc.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/Screenshot-2...

The darker bar graph us what needs to be used.

Asians most discriminated. Whites and Pacific islanders a distant second. Hispanics and multiracial follow closely at 3rd position. Blacks benefit the most, but given that the number of students in each ethnicity is not specified then the discrimination level is unclear.

If there are very few Asian students and plenty of black students, whites can be experiencing discrimination. However, if there are lots of Asians and very few black students, then whites are beneficiaries!

They could have used the average as a zero control, but they used whites, which means that definitive statements can only be made about black and Asian students!

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#577

Post by onetimeusename » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #553

onetimeusename wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think WASPs are given an edge here. I feel like it is actually racist to make this assumption also. White people as a broad category are the only racial group that is underrepresented relative to their population percentage in Ivy League schools. Maybe you could make the argument that WASPs are a subset of white people who are overrepresented specifically because of that faculty benefit for admissions but the…

There is no such thing as “white people.” WASPs are a distinct tribe and feel zero affinity to white ethnics, Appalachians, etc.

zero affinity to white ethnics

a lot like another distinct tribe

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#578

Post by kaashif » Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 10:55 PM UTC

positr0n wrote: post #565

kaashif wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let me reiterate: that requires for it occur to a student that you even can increase your SAT score. Maybe, but this is so far from my experience, I'm having trouble accepting it. There's an important test coming up. Surely the default, baseline assumption must be that you should prepare for it? How could anything else be true? Everyone knows getting some practice in makes you better at something, right? I guess yo…

I had a similar experience as OP. Maybe you can't imagine it because you went to a competitive high school where kids talked a lot about stuff like that? I barely tried and was in the top 1% of my class yet I didn't prepare for the PSAT or SAT that I can recall. Maybe I did do a few practice SAT tests, but it definitely was preached that the SAT was an aptitude test so you couldn't study for it. I ended up getting $6…

> I had a similar experience as OP. Maybe you can't imagine it because you went to a competitive high school where kids talked a lot about stuff like that?

The reason I probably can't imagine this stuff is that I grew up in the UK, where exams are exams, and everyone knows you can study for them (even if they don't).

The idea of a set of exams being pitched as an aptitude test you can't study for (when in fact you definitely can study for aptitude tests) is weird.

I guess children in many public schools in America are being failed on such a basic level - not being told what the tests they're taking mean and whether you can study - that I had no idea.

> it definitely was preached that the SAT was an aptitude test so you couldn't study for it.

This seems like you were just straight up lied to, and is sad.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#579

Post by crazygringo » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 12:27 AM UTC

kaashif wrote: post #578

positr0n wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar experience as OP. Maybe you can't imagine it because you went to a competitive high school where kids talked a lot about stuff like that? I barely tried and was in the top 1% of my class yet I didn't prepare for the PSAT or SAT that I can recall. Maybe I did do a few practice SAT tests, but it definitely was preached that the SAT was an aptitude test so you couldn't study for it. I ended up getting $6…

> I had a similar experience as OP. Maybe you can't imagine it because you went to a competitive high school where kids talked a lot about stuff like that? The reason I probably can't imagine this stuff is that I grew up in the UK, where exams are exams, and everyone knows you can study for them (even if they don't). The idea of a set of exams being pitched as an aptitude test you can't study for (when in fact you de…

It seems like you maybe just don't know what the SAT is.

It's not an exam like any other high school exam, it's totally unique. It's not meant to be studied for -- it's meant to give a general overview of your total scholastic ability. (It's also not even run by the school system, it's a private company that you have to pay in order to take the test.)

But the reality is that you can "game" it by learning patterns in the types of questions they ask, and how to give the answer they're "looking for" on the verbal section, when the correct answer is often highly subjective for questions on analogies and reading comprehension. And you can also focus on a very narrow subset of words and math problems that tend to statistically recur. There's also literally strategy around when you should guess vs. when you should leave an answer blank, depending on your confidence. These are what test prep focuses on -- not on improving your general scholastic aptitude in any way.

So it's not studying for an exam in any normal sense. It's more like "gaming" it.

As for children being failed on such a basic level in many public schools in America -- on that, you couldn't be more correct, sadly.

Re: Colleges that ditched admission tests find it harder to fairly choose students

#580

Post by macrolocal » Mon, Oct 24, 2022, 2:48 AM UTC

LawTalkingGuy wrote: post #572

macrolocal wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry about illiberalism becoming more prominent on the left and right.

Liberal has been somewhat taken over by a cross of libertine and anarchist, who say basically that liberalism is liberal it can't be exclusionary and therefore they're as valid a liberal as Locke. They've then used "liberal" as a rallying cry and a shield while they push a lot of illiberal policies. Actual liberals need to field a bit of a defense against this encroachment, and in language the public can understand.…

I'd guess people are rejecting neoliberalism more than Locke.

But if so, it's curious that the vocal left had shifted their attention from the disparity between people living in huts and palaces, to making sure that the people living in palaces are appropriately representative. That's a surprisingly conservative project (for better or worse).