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What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

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Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#571

Post by colordrops »

topaz0 wrote: post #474
colordrops wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain further? Not getting your meaning.

Society defines racial categories according to made-up rules. The basis of these rules is not biological. All good so far. But, then we have to live with these categories, and they get applied to how we organize society, sometimes explicitly, sometimes less explicitly. And we may wish for these rules to change, or for the ways that they shape the experiences of individuals to change. But then the people who benefit f…

These rules and categories are ill-defined and even don't exist in some cases. You are not wrong stating ruling class has promoted racial ideas to weaken and control the populace at large. That doesn't mean they exist. The real power structure is held by particular networks and families, not races, as there is no such thing as race. The idea that you can draw lines around a group based on physical characteristic is what they promulgate to fool us, so to use the same groupings to supposedly fix society is a stupid mistake. Both Norwegians and Yemenis are considered "white", which makes no sense. Are you telling me that Kanye West should get more privileges than a poor Yemeni because they are white? This is absurd. Did you know that Swedes and North Africans are less diverse genetically than northern vs southern chinese? What about mixed race people? What about countries that are in between regions that follow traditional "racial" groupings, such as central asia? Are we really that dumb to categorize people based on superficial vague judgements about appearance? And to leave it up to the completely non-scientific and biased judgements of HR?

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#572

Post by balls187 »

prepend wrote: post #470
balls187 wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does that mean? Worrying that kids may not be able to get into a decent school because they're not diverse enough seems like a a nice problem to have--parents of "diverse" children have much larger worries. > Just about anyone can get into a school, or get a job. Wouldn't that mean that based on the equality of outcomes, it doesn't matter what type of school OP's kids go to, and therefore no reason to worry.

I’m not sure what a “diverse” parent is or how you would know their mind. I expect that all parents, regardless of demographic factors, worry about their kid getting a good job and going to school.

How I know their mind is simple, I am not-white, and my kid's aren't white.

And true, parents do want their kids to succeed in life. But I also worry about how the world will treat my kids, because historically black and brown kids don't get treated well.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#573

Post by gcau »

In other places, like Africa or Asia, or just anywhere without a white majority, does the inverse exist? E.g. giving white people special treatment in hiring because they're a minority there? If the idea is logically consistent, based on diversity and inclusion and not racism, it should exist? Maybe it does? Never heard of it.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#574

Post by woojoo666 »

BryantD wrote: post #444
hintymad wrote: post #117

Maybe the question is why the leftists are so influential that for-profit companies are willing to comply with their ideology. Isn't the best way to increase the representation of minorities is to increase the funnel? Better schools, better teachers, more rigorous curriculum for all instead of for the elite students, a whole new culture that values curiosity and geekiness in general, and eventually a larger number of…

Oh, that’s easy. Because you wind up with a better, more productive company when you put forth the considerable effort necessary to increase diversity. It’s winning in the marketplace because it’s better. You’re 100% right about the funnel, but here’s the thing: junior positions are part of the funnel. About ten years ago I realized that I was screwing up massively by interviewing for current skill level instead of p…

> Oh, that’s easy. Because you wind up with a better, more productive company when you put forth the considerable effort necessary to increase diversity. It’s winning in the marketplace because it’s better.

It would help if you cited your sources here, but I do remember myself seeing some studies on this.

One in particular was about how venture capital firms did better when they hired for diversity and had diverse people in top roles [1]. The study mentioned that venture capitalism has very particular homogenous in-group culture, which diversity hiring helped firms break out of. In fact many articles seem to push this idea that diversity hiring leads to more perspectives on issues and more out-of-the-box thinking, leading to greater success.

While this makes sense, this is very different from the rational pushed by the top-level comment of this thread, which says that diversity hiring is to make up for discrimination at the beginning of the funnel. Because if the goal is just to broaden perspectives by tweaking their hiring process, companies can do this without looking at race or gender. There are metrics that can specifically optimize for this. There's no reason why race/gender needs to be specifically considered in order to end up with more diversity of thought.

[1]: https://hbr.org/2018/07/the-other-diversity-dividend

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#575

Post by dijonman2 »

paperwasp42 wrote: post #565
omginternets wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatedly: I cannot defend the kind of "diversity" that would rather hire a rich brahmin than an inner-city American kid in need of a leg-up, just to fulfill some backwards skin-color quota. It's obscene, and insulting to all parties involved. I also worry that this nonsense will erode support for the kind of diversity I do defend, or worse, prompt some kind of revanchist backlash against visible minorities in genera…

> I also worry that this nonsense will erode support for the kind of diversity I do defend, or worse, prompt some kind of revanchist backlash against visible minorities in general. As a women in tech, I am feeling the backlash. I have seen a huge increase in the amount of skepticism of my abilities that I face from people who haven't worked with me before. And the worst part of it is that there's actually logic behin…

As a hiring manager I have substantial pressure to hire incompetent people to meet quotas. I confronted my recruiter in front of witnesses and was partially shunned.

I have been hiring for many years, and I truly pay no attention to gender or ethnicity. Now I am forced to.

It’s an insult to those who earned their position. It’s an insult to me as I am less and less likely to get a new job because I won’t fit quotas.

There is resentment all around.

I feel bad for the minorities who have worked hard to earn their positions, you are right that it undermines their work and trivializes their commitment to their work.

It’s gone way too far.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#576

Post by balls187 »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #560
colpabar wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be forbidden to say, but for all intents and purposes, “diverse” means “not white”.

And in some cases, not Asian.

And sometimes Asian just means "Chinese, Japense, and Korean"

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#577

Post by dijonman2 »

gcau wrote: post #573

In other places, like Africa or Asia, or just anywhere without a white majority, does the inverse exist? E.g. giving white people special treatment in hiring because they're a minority there? If the idea is logically consistent, based on diversity and inclusion and not racism, it should exist? Maybe it does? Never heard of it.

It doesn’t exist. Curiously my company employs few folks of Asian descent but I never see this raised anywhere in D&I material.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#578

Post by omegaworks »

pedrosorio wrote: post #568
omegaworks wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All Brahmin, members at the top of a caste system established by British colonizers[1]. A system causing its own set of problems in Silicon Valley[2]. 1. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48619734 2. https://slate.com/technology/2022/07/caste-silicon-valley-th...

So, what's the mechanism here? The white Americans in power are fans of the caste system established by the British colonizers and decided to make an exception to their white supremacy to allow some Brahmins to control some of the most important US tech companies?

I'm simply pointing out that your three examples don't negate the fact that we have a system here that taken whole rewards and uplifts whiteness. White colonialism literally crafted the system that elevated those three non-white people. Do you think that that influence is not relevant just because those three people are not white?

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#579

Post by gnull »

winternett wrote: post #538
gnull wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minorities are essential within companies to prevent bias in their marketing and product development that can be fatal to business success There's a ton of different sources of bias. Look at lesswrong.com. What (other than politics) makes minority bias more significant than the other? And why it can't be fought with ordinary means and working on yourself? You don't need to be the same thing as the object of your st…

>> Just like you can study Geology without being a rock, you can study what a minority group wants/needs/buys without belonging to it. Your logic by nature is total flaw. You can't see it because of your own condition, and supremacist beliefs. It could probably citing that not be explained to you how a lion cannot be taught to understand an ox's life, or how a Hasidic Jew can be fairly considerate of a Muslim perspec…

> You can't see it because of your own condition, and supremacist beliefs

Being disrespectful to people who disagree with you, and at the same time unable to produce any sensible argument only harms the cause you're fighting for.

> how a lion cannot be taught to understand an ox's life

Limited intelligence is the defining factor here, not background. Think about it. Humans can understand lions quite well, and we understand what's good for them, what makes them happy. And we do it without having to run around savanna biting zebras!

And yes, Jews and Muslims can have a very good idea about each others life, struggles and priorities—it's just a matter of education.

> globalist companies like Microsoft are by nature required to properly represent all of the people

I could argue with this and would probably enjoy it another time. Now let's remember the context we are in. We were talking about whether D&I are good for company's performance, not about any moral obligations you may think the company has.

> People have a right to be different, and a natural tendency to be biassed towards their own individual and cultural perspectives

We also have a natural tendency to fall for logical fallacies. But somehow we managed to identify those and find ways to fight them, not worship them. Nothing stops you from fighting the cultural bias you have (maybe not completely, but just enough to get it off the way of your work duties) in the same way—later go home, take off your employee hat and be different, biased, whatever.

Re: What “diversity and inclusion” means at Microsoft

#580

Post by dijonman2 »

s1k3 wrote: post #547
nsxwolf wrote: post #456

I shut my mouth at work and go along with this stuff because I have no choice. I have a family to take care of. I've accepted this. But man, why do they always throw in the line about striving to make the workplace a "diverse and inclusive culture where everyone can bring their full and authentic self"? Everyone knows that's a goddamn lie. I almost want to cry when I read that - it makes me so angry. I haven't been a…

Did I post this and forget I did?

I’m in the same boat.
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