571–580 of 841 posts
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>the show is not faithful to the source material. I think it actually is pretty faithful to it. There is not a lot of sources for the 2nd age from Tolkien and they did a great job with what was there. Most of the bad reviews are just trolls screeching about some political agenda that is completely ubrelated to the show.
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> Contrast Galadriel who acts like a self righteous dickhead with Aragorn who was reluctant to accept his calling spent and three movies proving himself to be worthy of honor and love You mean three books, right? The difference here is that Aragorn was written by Tolkien, this show wasn't and has completely betrayed the original material. Race or gender swaps are not a big issue, but they become one if the purpose is…
"in Italy, Tuscany, mid 1800, were no black woman was ever seen " Yeah, right. Clearly you've not heard about Othello, a Shakespearean play from the 1400s set in Italy with a black man as the titular character.
We study at the age of 6 that the Roman empire had black emperors, African born (see: Septimius Severus), but no, where Pinocchio is set and among the people he is living with, nobody knew about Othello or Septimius Severus, nobody could even read, for sure not Pinocchio, that is in fact turned into a donkey for being so ignorant and certainly there were no black fairy women.
Sorry.
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When you say European, except for the fact that Tolkien wrote the story, what part of the show thus far has given you an explicit European feel? Did the Harfoots resemble British subjects, or do the race of men have to be from the European continent because of their skin color? Which city did Lindon look like? If we're already in a fantasy setting, why is there such a focus on relating the setting of the fantasy to o…
My bet is that the only reason to have "harfoots" is avoiding to pay for the use of the copyrighted word "hobbits" in the near future. It sounds like a fart. Definitely lacking the talent of Tolkien to find the surgically precise word for each term, but I can understand the legal aspects of the need-for-control part.
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The only part of the depiction he’s complaining about is race, though.
Dunno. Ask. Listen. Be humble. Have a hypothesis and then do your best to falsify that. Give him all of the charity he needs to refute your guess that he's a bigot. "So you say that there is a convention in Italian literature of depicting other-worldly beings as having freakishly white skin. Would you be ok with the Pinocchio reboot if the same African-descended actress portrayed the fairy, but were instead made up w…
> So, no, I don't think "focusing on race" is an automatic signifier of racism.
It sounds like you're saying "if he acts like a bigot, but he says he's not a bigot, then give him the benefit of the doubt."
To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…
Is this theoretical, or are you saying this actually happened? I haven't seen this latest show, but for example I had no problems with nonwhite characters in The Witcher. What is a European fantasy show anyway, it's not like they take place in literal Europe? Somehow nobody complains about loss of immersion when characters are changed to white, which happens 100x more often.
I'm actually asking in good faith because I can't recall any "to white" race swapping in the past few years.
All the ones I can think of were Ann Boleyn, the little mermaid, the coming beauty and the beast, the recent terrible resident evil, etc.
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When you say European, except for the fact that Tolkien wrote the story, what part of the show thus far has given you an explicit European feel? Did the Harfoots resemble British subjects, or do the race of men have to be from the European continent because of their skin color? Which city did Lindon look like? If we're already in a fantasy setting, why is there such a focus on relating the setting of the fantasy to o…
My bet is that the only reason to have "harfoots" is avoiding to pay for the use of the copyrighted word "hobbits" in the near future. It sounds like a fart. Definitely lacking the talent of Tolkien to find the surgically precise word for each term, but I can understand the legal aspects of the need-for-control part.
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Isn't it the case that race is acceptably mutable if it isn't germain to the story and that making all audiences feel more accepted and therefore happier is a laudable goal. Nothing woke about greater non white representation. Plenty snowflake about not wanting this.
> if it isn't germain to the story and that making all audiences feel more accepted and therefore happier is a laudable goal. why not come up with new stories then, instead of trying to make them fit in something written decades if not centuries ago? > Nothing woke about greater non white representation. the World is full of non white mythology, I would love to see something inspired by African.mythologies for exampl…
I thought it was mediocre overall but Amazon is doing this to prevent review bombing. Presumably because the IMDB rating appears in the Prime app
Review bombing goes both ways, somehow we always only hear about one side.
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> Contrast Galadriel who acts like a self righteous dickhead with Aragorn who was reluctant to accept his calling spent and three movies proving himself to be worthy of honor and love You mean three books, right? The difference here is that Aragorn was written by Tolkien, this show wasn't and has completely betrayed the original material. Race or gender swaps are not a big issue, but they become one if the purpose is…
Wait, there were no black people in Italy in the 1800s? Italy isn’t exactly far from Africa - Africans were part of the Roman Empire, and Shakespeare was writing about black people in Italy only a couple centuries earlier - Heck, Othello was based on an Italian story written around the same time as Pinocchio, and that one had a black protagonist, too! They may not have been a majority, but they existed.
yep... but there a thing called the sea between them
> Africans were part of the Roman Empire
1400 years before Pinocchio times
> Othello was based on an Italian story
In Venice, set 400 years before Pinocchio.
Where Pinocchio lived and where Collodi set the story there were no black people in ~1850s
Not that some black person couldn't be found in Florence, but Pinocchio is set in a small village where people knew each other and didn't travel far from home.
People mostly lived a self segregated life.
There's a reason why there aren't many popular Italian books of the time including black people, they were not a numerous presence.
I Promessi Sposi (The Betrothed from Manzoni) it's probably the most popular Italian novel ever, it was written around the same time of Pinocchio and is set in Milan in 1630s during the plague and the Spanish rule.
There isn't a single black person mentioned in the ~600 pages that make the book.
To be maybe controversial... I'm still thinking about it, but I do wonder if diverse casting works in European fantasy stories. The problem I have is that it generally pulls me out of the experience/ makes it less immersive. I welcome diverse castings in modern shows (though we don't need every show to follow a template 'diverse' casting). A common counter argument is, well you can suspend your disbelief and imagine…
Star Trek: Voyager first aired in 1995, so it's been a while. I can't really come up with any meaningful differences between the two cases.
Certainly my reading of "Tolkien's Elves" has always been that they're a very light-skinned (dwarves are more ambiguous). I don't overly care if Elves are black- or white-skinned, just as I don't really care about the skin colour of Vulcans in Star Trek.
Yet at the same time, it somehow feels a bit different. I'm having a hard time to articulate why, but I think a big part of the reason is that it feels more forced with all the rhetoric of the last decade or so where everything and everyone is part of "white supremacist culture" and whatnot over what seem extremely minor issues to me.
Tim Russ was hired to play Tuvok presumably because his audition went well in a kind of "colourblind" hiring that is now, apparently, racist (I have a lot of criticisms of Voyager as a series, but Tim Russ' portrayal of Tuvok is not one of them).
I think what people resent isn't the fact that there are black elves, it's the forcing of it, and that everything is scrutinized at a microscopic level for alleged "racism" (e.g. [1]), and that not going out of your way to be "anti-racist" is racist in itself (as if lots of people don't already have enough problems on their own). I suspect that if the LotR movies had black elves – 20 years ago and in a different time – few people would have raised a ruckus over it.
Fights like this are like argueing over the dishes as a couple: it's not really about the dishes; it's a silly outlet of general dissatisfaction.
[1]: https://theconversation.com/how-hollywoods-alien-and-predato...