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The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

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Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What countries don't have a fiat money system?

The US before 1914.

Ah yes let’s use data from 100+ years ago from a nearly pre-industrial economy as the basis for what we should do today

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#572
> with flats with just two bedrooms going for more than half a million euros in the centers of Lisbon or Oporto. A figure that no Portuguese middle-class would ever be able to afford in this life.

Not to retract from the article, but the city center on the capital are never supposed to be affordable for the middle-class anywhere in the world. This is the most premium space of the whole country where everyone wants to live, and housing is limited, so only those able and willing to spend top money (e.g. the wealthy, not the middle class) are usually able to live there.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can also put in place policies to increase native population growth.

No one has found or discovered such policies that work across-the-board.

Because no western country has tried lowering housing costs yet. And I mean actually lowering housing costs, not just talking about it on TV, posturing, political promises or making stupid mistakes like rent-freezes and such.

But blaming the poor young people priced out of their own country for not breeding, and just bringing third world immigrants with no living standards, is much easier than improving the living standards of your own population.

As long as you treat housing like a speculative investment that is squeezing the young to get a much larger return for the older owners, instead of treating it like shelter and a basic necessity for any family, why are you surprised young people don't breed anymore? The precarious job market isn't doing them any favors either.

Mass migration that puts more pressure on affordable housing and on the low-end jobs market is not the solution here. That breeds long term instability, segregation, distrust, and leads to political extremism. The solution is fixing housing, which nobody actually wants to do, because "housing prices must go UP", and the ruling asset owning class is making a killing from it.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#574

What a nonsense article ; this applies to every country in the most popular cities.

Yeah, the article leans towards the nonsensical side. This is not a Portuguese-exclusive problem as it's happening in almost every developed country in the world right now. And in the interior of the country, not even that far away from Lisbon and Porto there's tons of affordable housing that's in line with the Portuguese economy. And let's do something about the tens of thousands of empty houses and apartments in the big cities that are being used by rich russians and chinese and hedge funds as a means to park their blood money and the out of control airbnbs before we start blaming the immigrants, shall we?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#575
post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, thanks for the pointers. Now that I think of it, I think Saudi Arabia and UAE may be added to that list.

Yep! They also prefer suburban tract housing. Also in Ireland and UK in my experience (my coworkers in the London office all moved to Reading, MK, Newbury, etc once they started familes). Amsterdam as well after visiting another cousin in Amsteveel, and Aahrus and Espoo to meet a buddy of mine who went to Aarhus Universitet and started at Nokia

>(my coworkers in the London office all moved to Reading, MK, Newbury, etc once they started familes

This goes back a long time. The stockbroker belt/home counties as where commuters into London live has been a thing for more than a century, since railways then automobiles made this practical.

The attitude klabb3 mentioned of "Europeans don't want American suburbs" is, as I think he is realizing, nonsense. No matter where, no matter who, the majority of people prefer detached homes with lawns if they can afford them. (I speak as among the minority who prefers dense living.)

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many dislike the idea, but this is why people turn to "nationalism". If you want to decrease unemployment, you add tariffs for imports enabling more businesses to open domestically (i.e. tariffs effectively increase import costs). Similarly, you can loosen building codes to increase production of homes, limit visa duration, require citizenship for home ownership, etc. Those are some obvious fixes, why is the governme…

Europe largely isn't reproducing. It has to allow immigration for its survival.

>Europe largely isn't reproducing.

Yeah and why is that? Is it because the young are now competing in a zero-sum capitalism squid-game economy, where good jobs are scarce and super stressful to get, requiring you to grind away the most fertile years of your life, and that lawmakers, banks, speculators, foreign buyers and NIMBY boomers have made owning a family home completely unaffordable for the young in most cities with jobs, giving young people too much anxiety about starting a family?

No, it must be porn, hookup dating apps, and all that damn avocado toast to blame. /s

>It has to allow immigration for its survival.

Here's a wild idea: Instead of imposing mass migration from the third world on everyone, you first try, , MAKING HOUSING SUPER AFFORDABLE, and watch young people breed like rabbits?

I'm from a ex-communist country and during those days population was monstrously booming, because, even though young people could not afford modern luxuries like iPhones, cars, TVs, consoles, oranges, bananas, washing machines, Adidas shoes and tracksuits, fancy cafes, they didn't have to worry about the main things that give young people anxiety about starting a family today: jobs, housing and childcare. The state would provide families with all of those necessities. I'm not saying communism is the solution, it's not, but it turns out that most humans have very simple needs in life (we're still animals at the end of the day), and as long as the need for food(jobs), safe shelter(housing) and childcare are covered, they'll solve the need for sex on their own and breed like crazy without having any modern luxuries.

So why are we surprised Europeans aren't breeding anymore when those basic needs have been intentionally made very difficult for them to get in the name of profit, and instead we push third world immigration as a the solution to replace them?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> or example, if you own three ordinary apartments in Lisbon, you can live in one of them and easily make a good living by renting out the other two as holiday apartments. Because cleaning services, guys who do repairs, etc., are cheap in Portugal, this involves almost no work. Moreover, the net worth of your property will continually increase while you do (almost) nothing. I'm a bit conflicted on this. I definitely…

> But it should be noted: property is simply an asset like any other > So I don't really see a structural problem with this system. This is the disconnect. Residential real estate is fundamentally different than owning stock, in that people need a place to live and building residential construction is much more difficult than issuing stock . When wealthy people from abroad buy multiple apartment buildings in desirabl…

> When wealthy people from abroad buy multiple apartment buildings in desirable cities, and then proceed to keep living elsewhere (probably in a different residence in another desirable city) they create a problem that in no way resembles the result of buying stock in a company.

I agree that buying housing stock and leaving it empty is an issue. But they're not the cause of all the housing issues, in most cases they're a tiny fraction of the problem. Most cities have vacancy rates of just a couple percent. Given the average person in a big city moves every 4 years and a home is empty for 1 month inbetween tenants/owners, you'd already have 2% permanent vacancy rates. Most cities have vacancy rates of 3-4%, Lisbon has 5%. It's definitely stupid to allow high vacancy rates and most cities have laws against them (here in Amsterdam you get fined for leaving your house empty), but even shaving off 1 or 2% off the vacancy rates isn't solving the housing problem. It very often features in newspaper articles because it's a clickbait story: rich person buys home and leaves it empty. Again, it's stupid and we should expand laws against it, but solving it still keeps 99% of the issues with housing which have nothing to do with this phenomenon.

And this phenomenon is limited precisely because housing is a market, and from a financial perspective it's a stupid idea to buy an asset and forgo its use or its returns.

Beyond that, nothing that I noted about assets has a disconnect because everyone else owning housing simply rents it out at the market rate, which is both the most expensive but also the cheapest marginal price to provide an extra unit of housing, which is the same for any asset and there's no real disconnect here.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think the better question to ask is, whats the bigger contributor to inflation of prices recently...? gas prices? electronics supply issues? general supply chain issues? (expected soon) energy/food supply issues? how does commodity money fix that?

Creating trillions of dollars with the stroke of a pen and then showering that onto the economy. It's Supply&Demand at work. Create lots of money (add Supply) and the value of it goes down (Inflation). The same thing happens to the price of refrigerators if 10 million gets dumped on the market. The price for a refrigerator goes down.

from what i understand, when the fed does stimulus, they have to take out a loan/bond so as long as the "value" is canceled out by the loaned "debt" im not sure why its going to create inflation?

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#579
The average salary in Munich is about twice as high as in Lisbon, but house prices are almost three times as high.

Additionally, Portugal is suffering from high taxes (because everyone tries to avoid paying them, it's a vicious circle), and low productivity (they are working a lot, but ineffectively and in the wrong industries).

Almost 10% of the population have emigrated to the rest of Europe and they have every right to do so, just like all Europeans have the right to live in Lisbon.

And for the Brazilians being picked on in the article - Portugal could never finance its completely unsustainable social security system were it not for the influx of foreigners working there.

What's really needed is to address government corruption, fighting tax avoidance, lowering the taxes and increasing social housing projects. But this is very difficult to do.

Re: The Portuguese can no longer afford to live in Portugal

#580

> with flats with just two bedrooms going for more than half a million euros in the centers of Lisbon or Oporto. A figure that no Portuguese middle-class would ever be able to afford in this life. Not to retract from the article, but the city center on the capital are never supposed to be affordable for the middle-class anywhere in the world. This is the most premium space of the whole country where everyone wants to…

in many cities the 'old center' or historic center is crammed and decrepit and often has problems with homelessness/drug addicts . Most people want to live in suburbs or nice apartment neighborhoods.

The "Business district" is only relevant to new york and other big financial centers

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