Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#571

Post by alex_suzuki » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:27 AM UTC

mjan22640 wrote: post #500

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

In my experience, young man at the start of their carrier are willing to go to great lengths to work from home. After they marry and get kids, they become willing to go great lengths to work from the office.

Other way round for me. Having more time for family/kids because I don’t have to commute is great. Also, starting out in a completely remote setting sounds a bit daunting to me.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#572

Post by manuelabeledo » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:29 AM UTC

maratc wrote: post #532

thiht wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t really work both ways though. Remote fans don’t force everyone to be remote.

Remote fans force everyone to use tools to accommodate their remoteness. We used to have a stand-up meeting each morning at a time "when everyopne's arrived" and we used to have a whiteboard on the wall with the most current tasks. None of this can work with even one remote worker, so it's gone to scheduled Zooms, online task managers, and endless Slack messages.

In exchange, now you have proper record of everything said and done.

I love the fact that I can always go back to Slack and say “See? This is what we agreed upon”, instead of having to recall the specifics of a meeting where notes weren’t taken in detail.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#573

Post by Melchizedek » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:31 AM UTC

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #551

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

My personal hot take: I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home are very young and have not developed social awareness and/or don't feel the need to separate life and work, because their life is their work and vice versa. Most people that do not want to return to office are still in that phase of their life where they need to rebel to authority to feel alive and will end up being those "middle manage…

So, spending hours in a car instead of with my own kids is "mature".

Spending the family income on cars and gas and paying an extra million for a house in order to make commuting even feasible is "mature".

Destroying the environment, wasting precious resources and spewing out poisonous particles that enter the lungs and bloodstream of other human beings is "mature".

And engaging in office maneuvering and chit-chatting instead of producing great value for my employer is "mature".

I'd rather be immature then.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#574

Post by NikolaNovak » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:33 AM UTC

np- wrote: post #479

zo1 wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Remote also requires a lot of rethinking of team dynamics, work allocation and just plain old making sure stuff is done. Make no mistake, WFH may be arguably better and more pleasant from the employee perspective, but it makes projects more difficult for the rest of the…

> Eng manager here. Honestly not everyone is sold on remote being better much less equivalent in productivity or output compared to being in an office. Ad an IC, I would have potentially believed this if the past two years where everyone was working from home wasn’t anything but unbridled success for the tech industry. Companies literally can’t hire us fast enough right now, and yet there are really still some manage…

>>"Are managers supposed to be like daycare supervisors of children or something?"

I mean... Yes, sometimes? Coding skill and emotional intelligence don't necessarily have an embedded linear relationship :D. But more seriously, a lot of team members need anything from emotional support to soft skill coaching to nurturing and encouragement etc. But that again to me is orthogonal to the remote vs office. I can be a daycare supervisor to an adult remotely if need be :).

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#575

Post by dougmwne » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:34 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #257

hogrider wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you tell who you eventually hire it's a shitty salary because it sounds they would only take the job if they don't know what they're worth.

I'm very upfront when I schedule the interview, give them a range when we set the time and if they're still interested we proceed. It's education analytics, so there's a little bit of "doing it for the mission" that gets people who are willing to make a little less because the job really has a very direct impact on students' success and lives. My work reduces student debt and increases success rates and identifies th…

Maybe you need to re-pitch this role as a contract and hire a remote contractor. I think you would get plenty of interest from experienced analysts if you could hire nationally. I might even be interested with that generous PTO policy, but on-site is like going back to the stone age for me. Whatever metro area you are in that salary must be a show stopper. Many younger people are stuck with incredibly high housing costs without the benefit of being grandfathered into rent control or mortgage payments from 7 years ago.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#576

Post by twayt » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:39 AM UTC

Closi wrote: post #536

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

> Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Warning: Hot Take. I have similar logic, but reach an almost opposite conclusion. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working at home rather than an office have unfulfilling work…

This is unquestionably false for everyone I know including myself.

1. Many people already have built good relationships with their colleagues prior to WFH and talking to them over GVC helps the relationship. You are allowed to open up more when you know no one else is around except you and the person you're talking to 1:1. You don't have to be afraid that someone outside the meeting room or cubicle is going to hear you. A lot of the day-to-day frictions are also removed from the equation. Being completely honest, things like appearance, odor, height differences, physical presence, status symbols (watches, car keys, wallet, phones) all cause insecurities in a competitive office space. I find that in a remote work setting, you can focus more on the person as an individual.

2. Working remotely offers the flexibility to work from a location that better suits your social preferences. A LOT of my friends and myself were completely and utterly miserable socially working in the Bay Area. As soon as we had the option, we moved out and have built thriving social circles. It is not always the person's fault if they struggle to form meaningful friendships. It can also be the environment and whether it is a good fit. This eases social insecurity and allows colleagues to connect more authentically.

3. Working remotely offers the flexibility to detach from work and go do other things (if you don't have meetings etc.). This allows you to interact with people outside the office more and develop more meaningful relationships over time.

Remote work isn't about being locked up in a room and only communicating through a webcam. It is primarily about removing the unnecessary overhead that we previously thought was a prerequisite of work (e.g. commuting, "fake work", watercooler conversations, stressful and contrived socializing events at work, open office plans, can't work on other things during unnecessary meetings, running into people you don't like or who distract you, sexual tension with workers of the opposite sex, being exposed to people's bad moods, dirty public restrooms, walking to meeting rooms across the building, working from a cramped cubicle with smelly people, who can type louder and faster competitions, etc. etc. etc.)

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#577

Post by IshKebab » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:41 AM UTC

JimBlackwood wrote: post #557

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

I never understand this or any hot take related to WFH. Why is it necessary to assume something negative about another person simply because you’re different? It’s nonsense. It truly doesn’t matter. WFH can be great, working from the office can be great. Find a company where the social and work culture fit with what you prefer.

Yeah people seem to be incapable of understanding that people have different preferences! It's like everyone is arguing that red is the best colour, no blue is clearly the best...

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#578

Post by twayt » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:42 AM UTC

montalbano wrote: post #568

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

You've skipped over an important group of people here: in any healthy workplace, new starters, graduates and other junior developers benefit massively from being in the same office as their more senior colleagues. The amount they learn from accumulated small interactions that would not happen in remote working cannot be overstated.

What exactly do you learn from your coworkers? It isn't like you are pair programming constantly with senior devs all the time.

I've learnt way more reading papers and documentation than being in the same physical space as more senior colleagues. People sometimes bring this point up re: onboarding but I don't quite understand what people learn that they can't do otherwise remotely.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#579

Post by dougmwne » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:42 AM UTC

tayistay wrote: post #477

When the pandemic started and everyone was on lockdown, there were very few cars on the roads around SF. I remember being able to see into the distance so clearly, it was surprising. I read that 2/3 of the SF Bay Area could work remotely. In the age of climate change (not to mention air pollution) we probably should insist on, or even mandate, remote work whenever possible. Supposed productivity benefits from in pers…

Yes, when you zoom out, this debate become quite ridiculous. WFH has already been proven to not destroy the company and many roles beyond dev can be done remotely. The amount of road building, carbon emissions, fossil fuel, and traffic congestion generated for this questionable value of gathering every day is pretty staggering. It's the kind of thing we will look back at in future years in disbelief that we could be so wantonly wasteful with the limited resources of our fragile biosphere.

Re: Apple's director of machine learning resigns due to return to office work

#580

Post by bluescrn » Sun, May 08, 2022, 10:42 AM UTC

malwarebytess wrote: post #483

Warning: Hot Take. I genuinely believe many people who prefer working in an office versus at home have unfulfilling social lives or bad home lives. The social dynamics, competition, in physical offices fills the void in their lives. Also seems like most of the people clamoring for a return to the office are also climbers & middle managers. For some work a physical presence is required not just preferable, but for mos…

It's not about the office, it's about the commuting, which can often increase the length of the working day by 25% or more, and can add a thoroughly miserable start and end to that day (stuck in traffic, or on delayed/overcrowded trains), and make life seem much worse even if you're doing enjoyable work with great people in a really nice office.

Offices have their pros and cons (WFH can be a horribly lonely experience for anyone who lives alone, for example). But it's removing the commuting that makes WFH such a massive win for most people. And a big win for the environment (which should be reason enough to try and keep it going)