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Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

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571–580 of 632 posts

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#571
post #141

> and that the policy is wasteful, inflexible and will lead to a "younger, whiter, more male-dominated, more neuro-normative, more able-bodied" workforce. Does anyone take tossing around words like this seriously anymore? I am pro working remotely, but this is just ridiculous.

I'm more tired of people who can't see any type of diversity-related language without getting triggered.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#572
post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a remote work advocate. > Can anyone honestly and sincerely tell me that online whiteboards are exactly equivalent to in-person whiteboard sessions? Of course it's not an exact equivalent, but it doesn't need to be. Anecdotally speaking, the number of whiteboard meetings I had that I wanted to have were about 1 per year. Remote workers use tools like Notion, Miro, Jetbrains Code With me which have many/more of th…

The value for being in the office for me was in the spontaneous connections with folks that weren't in my immediate work unit. Those connections have lead to every job I have had. The best kinds of jobs are the ones that come to you and you don't have to interview for; and you just aren't going to get anywhere near the numbers of those opportunities without "pressing the flesh". If that's not a concern for you then h…

I understand, but I must say that it doesn't sound very efficient to be working in an office for 8 hours every day in order to have useful spontaneous connections every once in a while. Meetups and other events also provide such interactions without having to be there all the time while coding, writing, etc.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#573
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand some of the ideas people have about remote work. Remote work may be great, but there will be challenges associated. For example, so many people are going about saying that they should be paid the same whether they work in SF or Topeka. And the assumption is that means people in Topeka will be paid SF salaries. And that may be true for a few years while we are still inside an extremely tigh…

For venture capital backed tech companies at least, isn't one of the largest expenses salaries? Doesn't it almost benefit companies to have more employees at a higher salary expense to bolster huge valuations?

We’ve reached peak bubble - “A company is worth more that spends more, not based on profit.”

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#575
post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

your understanding of personal, spontanoeus, life-changing moments are viewed through a context specific lens: your behaviors, routines, and lifestyles which at the time created a specific interaction. and you seem to be recalling it with rose-colored glasses.

because then suddenly you draw a conclusion that all personal spontaneity which has life-changing implications must happen in person (and that only these kinds of interactions can be serendipitous) and must happen according to .

however your lens fails to resolve the context for what it is: a set of circumstances around how you personally lived (and worked).

Nothing more, nothing less.

many moons ago i happened to accidentally click on a game server for a game i play which has quite a niche, but super competitive online gaming community (fps). i quickly found myself in a server where there were a handful of people spectating a couple of people playing. all very casually. sometimes taking turns.

i then discovered each person in the server was a professional player, who previously and currently for the time competed for money, and were to varying degrees successful. i spent the remainder of my night unexpectedly well, not playing, and just watching. hanging. getting pointers.

ultimately it led to me making some cool friends, but specifically finding a mentor -- one of them took me under their wing and taught me how to really play the game. that interaction alone pushed me to not only stick with the game and to become a better player -- which under this person's guidance was crazy because of the knowledge they possessed -- but it also left me with a life-long friend.

this friendship is one i very much so value, and it was formed totally accidentally, unexpectedly, serendipitously, and completely 100% virtual -- i have yet to meet this person, or any of the others (they are foreign) in person to this day.

that is one of many personal experiences i have had on the internet.

i have absolutely no idea how people arrive at a general conclusion that `office == only_vector_for_serendipity` other than this line of thinking being a direct consequence of drinking Steve Jobs'/Apple kool-aid (ie: designing bathroom layouts to favor random interactions), while also conflating personal experience with universal truth-ness.

that does not mean in-person interactions, random or otherwise, serve no purpose (ever work with someone who has valuable input but often self-censors? body language is hard to hide). i am just baffled as to how one can make such a sweeping statement about a thing being absolutely necessary.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#576
post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think if commuting time was fully paid work hours, then companies would quickly agree that minor optimizations like this aren't worth it. I would argue that you have priced in your commute to your market value when you take a job that requires you to commute, especially since knowledge workers tend to be salary, not hourly.

Well then you could consider remote jobs to be worth £2k+ more salary, net.

You are vastly underestimating the value of 3h (Bay Area average) of out of each week if one commutes 5 days a week. 3h*50wk = 150h - assuming $100 (lowball) bill rate that's $15k. A more median bill rate would likely be about $250 meaning it's probably worth $50k.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#577
post #359

Neuro normative? Good grief. They don't want to work in the office - no need to gobbledygook it up in some bizarre appeal to authority. I can say as someone who now works full time remote while also geographically isolated, it's not all a bed of roses. I do miss the serendipitous hallway conversations - some of the best directions in my career came from those spontaneous and unplanned in person interactions. I'm towa…

I honestly don't understand some of the ideas people have about remote work. Remote work may be great, but there will be challenges associated. For example, so many people are going about saying that they should be paid the same whether they work in SF or Topeka. And the assumption is that means people in Topeka will be paid SF salaries. And that may be true for a few years while we are still inside an extremely tigh…

I don't think this take will age well. By all public accounts there's something like a 15%-20% engineering talent shortage in tech. That means pay will go up regardless if Topeka or SF until the current generation of engineers catch up and become hire-able.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly don't understand some of the ideas people have about remote work. Remote work may be great, but there will be challenges associated. For example, so many people are going about saying that they should be paid the same whether they work in SF or Topeka. And the assumption is that means people in Topeka will be paid SF salaries. And that may be true for a few years while we are still inside an extremely tigh…

I think what you are missing is cheaper places don't offer the same quality and standard of living. Although this may force people to skip the overrated bubbles.

Certainly the Bay Area and quite a few other places on the West Coast (depending on your tolerance for clouds) are, to my taste, pretty attractive places beyond job prospects in certain industries. But NYC, Boston, Austin--add your other fairly popular cities in the US, much less Toronto in Canada--and cold/snowy winters or hot/humid summers haven't led to especially cheap housing.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hallway conversation thing befuddles me. Have you ever opened a chat window with someone at work to speak to them on the side? That's a hallway conversation. You can tell them any secret you want there. Have you ever seen two people interact in a group chat and learn something you didn't know before? That's the same as overhearing a hallway conversation. Grabbed a few friends in a group chat to chat about the wee…

> You can tell them any secret you want there. Well, secret in the sense of fully accessible to everyone in management at your company.

Can't argue with that! Used to just be nosy people, backstabbers and snitches in the office. Now Microsoft will do all that for free through Windows/Teams.

Re: Apple employees criticize work-from-home policy in open letter

#580
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, off the top of my head, black folks, asians, and latin folks might be more likely to be caretakers and/or further from the office. That said, if they have Apple salaries, I'm sure they can work it out. That said (again), they might need to spend more of that Apple salary than their peers to figure it out. So, it's a bold and unsubstantiated statement, but might have some truth to it. Idk, wish they would cite s…

What source would one cite for this that's not just anecdotes?

I can imagine a study could be done on the effects of WFH/WFO on minorities. That said, I wouldn't discount anecdotes if there were enough of them.
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