Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#571

Post by rank0 » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #127

libertine wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that a proper tax structure would do wonders - those who hoard housing should get a kick from a exponential tax. Like, what value are those corporations bringing to people, to the market, and to a country by hoarding houses other than controlling the renting market for some areas? How is that a good thing?

> those who hoard housing should get a kick from a exponential tax. Yes, but at the same time it should not be possible for them to pass those costs on to people renting the house; rents should be fixed, or based on things like floor space and amenities. But personally I think everyone should have a way in to the housing market. Renting is throwing away money; it goes into someone else's pocket and it's gone. When yo…

> Renting is throwing away money; it goes into someone else's pocket and it's gone.

Holy shit this is insane. Do you actually believe renting has no benefits?

When you purchase a property you’re on the hook for that mortgage payment for the next 30 years. Buyers absorb an enormous amount of risk. Maintenance is time consuming and expensive.

Renters can leave whenever they like and have no long term financial ties to the state of the property.

I guess everyone needs someone to fight against huh?

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#572

Post by FredPret » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

car_analogy wrote: post #358

eldaisfish wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is textbook xenophobia and you should be ashamed. Implying that the foreign born population in Canada are somehow less canadian or more foreign is not what anyone should be saying.

Yes yes xenophobia - but is it true ? Did Canada's past immigration policy contribute to current home prices? And more importantly - will the current immigration policy contribute to future high prices? If the goal is affordable housing, why is immigration the one policy that must not be adjusted to meet that goal?

Whether those new Canadians arrived by birth or immigration, they are here now. We should build enough houses for them.

If Canada cut it’s immigration targets, it would have to somehow produce a lot more babies to pay for everything. More houses needed either way.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#573

Post by admax88qqq » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #557

huevosabio wrote: post #493

These are boogieman policies that have zero influence on the root cause. Foreign investors jump into the housing market because the current system ensures that the supply of housing is limited so it is an attractive way to park your wealth. But that is not the root cause. The root cause is the system that is geared to keep houses always appreciating via supply constraints: aggressive zoning, discretionary permitting,…

We really should follow Japan on this: (a) National zoning (b) A culture that abhors second hand housing (so structures don't appreciate like land does). Housing that depreciates is no longer a sound investment. (c) Liberal definition on minimal standard housing to rent (central heating not required, toilets can be shared, no personal shower or even a shower at all in the building you are renting a room in, small spa…

> A culture that abhors second hand housing (so structures don't appreciate like land does). Housing that depreciates is no longer a sound investment

That sounds tremendously wasteful. All housing will have to be built new now?

> (d) Not very open to immigration at all, have a decreasing population.

This is probably the biggest reason housing is depreciating in Japan, especially outside of Tokyo.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#574

Post by kspacewalk2 » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:25 PM UTC

huevosabio wrote: post #493

These are boogieman policies that have zero influence on the root cause. Foreign investors jump into the housing market because the current system ensures that the supply of housing is limited so it is an attractive way to park your wealth. But that is not the root cause. The root cause is the system that is geared to keep houses always appreciating via supply constraints: aggressive zoning, discretionary permitting,…

I agree that this is the root cause, and it remains a third rail in Canadian politics. The province of Ontario commissioned a "Housing Availability Task Force" to do a [report](https://www.ontario.ca/page/housing-affordability-task-force...) spelling out the problem. They identified under-supply due to land use restrictions as the primary cause. The government ignored it and addressed secondary issues with lame bandaids in their June election platform.

They are conservatives, this "foreign buyer ban" bandaid is put in place by liberals. NDP and Greens offer nothing different. A quadri-partisan consensus on ignoring the root cause.

I do think there's another major cause - cheap money. It's fuelling a lot of the meteoric price growth and making the housing market even more of a wild speculative one, where all that matters is the carrying costs and not any underlying fundamentals. This one is more of a worldwide problem, and a small country like Canada cannot use monetary policy to bludgeon the housing market back into reality without bludgeoning the rest of the economy with it.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#575

Post by rasz » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

huevosabio wrote: post #493

These are boogieman policies that have zero influence on the root cause. Foreign investors jump into the housing market because the current system ensures that the supply of housing is limited so it is an attractive way to park your wealth. But that is not the root cause. The root cause is the system that is geared to keep houses always appreciating via supply constraints: aggressive zoning, discretionary permitting,…

>Foreign investors jump into the housing market because the current system ensures that the supply

some do, others just want to safely park capital away from their own government reach (China/Russia/various *stans/corrupted countries).

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#576

Post by fizzizist1 » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

alar44 wrote: post #559

weeksie wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be interesting in a couple years when prices are still crazy and someone has to come up with an excuse for why. It's amazing to me how resistant people are to the idea that housing is expensive because there aren't enough homes for people to live in. It's always a search for exotic explanations like foreign buyers and mysterious empty apartments.

I think the problem is that people want to buy 3 bedroom homes with a 3 stall garage on 2 acres of land. In my market, there are tons of affordable homes, but they aren't brand new, huge, with a ton of land. People are going to have to pay for that. It's a matter of keeping up with the Joneses from my perspective. People just don't want an average size home built in the 60s. They need a brand new 3k SQ ft home and bi…

I live in Toronto, and there is no way that I could buy a small (not even average size) home built in the 60s for less than a million dollars, unless it's in a really bad neighborhood or needs so much work that I will end up spending that much anyway

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#577

Post by nullc » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

huevosabio wrote: post #493

These are boogieman policies that have zero influence on the root cause. Foreign investors jump into the housing market because the current system ensures that the supply of housing is limited so it is an attractive way to park your wealth. But that is not the root cause. The root cause is the system that is geared to keep houses always appreciating via supply constraints: aggressive zoning, discretionary permitting,…

> Until we liberalize zoning, legalize building, and reject the idea that houses have to be appreciating assets, the issue will continue.

Even if all those things are done the issue will still continue.

There is a limited amount of land at desirable locations with desirable properties.

You can increase density-- sure-- but after densifying more than some threshold of land it won't help because the extremely high density housing is itself extremely unattractive to many people, so building more density only helps to the extent that there are people who want that with unmet housing needs.

The fundamental natural of housing is the root cause, restrictive policy is an exacerbating factor.

To use an extreme example, you can easily go find big tracts of land in Montana for under $1000 an acre where no one would prevent you from building a gosh darn arcology if you wanted to. Yet the existence of cheap land someplace else doesn't magically make the issue of housing costs solved. People don't want to live in that someplace else, they want to live in particular places and there always is and always will be a finite amount of land in those particular places.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#578

Post by throw_nbvc1234 » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #530

weeksie wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be interesting in a couple years when prices are still crazy and someone has to come up with an excuse for why. It's amazing to me how resistant people are to the idea that housing is expensive because there aren't enough homes for people to live in. It's always a search for exotic explanations like foreign buyers and mysterious empty apartments.

>how resistant people are to the idea that housing is expensive because there aren't enough homes for people to live in. I imagine there are enough homes in both America and Canada (they are two of the largest countries after all). But it's all about location. Very few can even afford to move out to the middle of nowhere just to own land. And not many people that can are willing to turn their potentially short commut…

There's the location choices you describe (city vs suburb vs middle of nowhere) and there's location choices around large city vs smaller city that's still significantly larger then "a liquor store, some off brand shopping market, a burger joint, and a 20 year outdated public library". Especially if/when remote work and non-location based salaries become the norm.

I recently had a recruiter try to convince me to move back to the midwest by throwing numbers about how median housing prices were over $500k less in my hometown then where I am now on the west coast. I don't need a house with my lifestyle right now, but I'll probably just move back if/when that changes. I enjoy living in a west coast city but not at the cost of 500k-1mil additional housing costs for a smaller place with less land. I'd be just as content moving back and using some of that extra money to travel or fund a long-term sabbatical.

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#579

Post by homonculus1 » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #557

huevosabio wrote: post #493

These are boogieman policies that have zero influence on the root cause. Foreign investors jump into the housing market because the current system ensures that the supply of housing is limited so it is an attractive way to park your wealth. But that is not the root cause. The root cause is the system that is geared to keep houses always appreciating via supply constraints: aggressive zoning, discretionary permitting,…

We really should follow Japan on this: (a) National zoning (b) A culture that abhors second hand housing (so structures don't appreciate like land does). Housing that depreciates is no longer a sound investment. (c) Liberal definition on minimal standard housing to rent (central heating not required, toilets can be shared, no personal shower or even a shower at all in the building you are renting a room in, small spa…

Great plan, for a favela

Re: Canada bans foreign home buyers for two years

#580

Post by AtlasBarfed » Tue, Apr 19, 2022, 6:26 PM UTC

johnnyanmac wrote: post #530

weeksie wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll be interesting in a couple years when prices are still crazy and someone has to come up with an excuse for why. It's amazing to me how resistant people are to the idea that housing is expensive because there aren't enough homes for people to live in. It's always a search for exotic explanations like foreign buyers and mysterious empty apartments.

>how resistant people are to the idea that housing is expensive because there aren't enough homes for people to live in. I imagine there are enough homes in both America and Canada (they are two of the largest countries after all). But it's all about location. Very few can even afford to move out to the middle of nowhere just to own land. And not many people that can are willing to turn their potentially short commut…

To specifically rail on the "liberal" Bay Area and numerous other "liberal" cities in the US:

The NIMBY housing policies and restrictions on building new housing are a massive part of sprawl, and with it the huge amount of excessive carbon emissions from commuting in single passenger cars.

A dense city is about the best organization of people for the environment. To get things you need, you travel the furthest distance. You centralize utilities and infrastructure. You preserve natural habitats. You reduce the effective footprint, actual and resource-wise, of the average person by huge amounts. It maximizes the effectiveness of public transport, and makes private transport less valuable. It makes transport modes like bikes, ebikes, scooters, or even walking viable. And people generally seem to prefer it.

Of course it's America, the incentives are completely messed up. The carbon tax exists as the one policy that everyone agrees would have helped reduce fossil fuel use to help avert global warming.

The other big environmental issue we face (well that we aren't facing up to) is the sixth mass extinction, which is primarily coming from sprawl. And the simple solution to that is to property tax the shit out of land in the exurbs and suburbs so that urban organization of housing is cheaper than suburban and rural, which is currently the opposite.

The externality to sprawl is the illusion that land is infinite. It most certainly is not. The real abundant supply in modern human architecture is going vertical, or even subterranean.

To get back to liberal cities where housing supply is being restricted, this is DIRECTLY causing environmental impacts, and has been for decades. It's not just a racial issue, it is very much an environmental one.