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Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

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Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#571

Post by aenis »

grog454 wrote: post #537
aenis wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it takes a dedicated team reviewing commands all day, every day, and dev team implementing event handlers, coordinating with other product teams. It takes lots of dedication. I used to run a chatbot that screened people. We thought we were asking simple enough questions, and yet two million chats in, we still discovered at least a Dozen unexpected/misdetected intents that required care. A day. And here is the…

> The answer is usually "one person every 400k sessions". But you control that to some extent. If more people are aware of the command and believe it will work (I wouldn't) then you'll probably get higher incidence rates. I wouldn't believe it would work because like the person two parent comments above, less than half the novel crap I try works. So I try novel crap less and less frequently compared to things that I…

I agree. But its a hard sell to management types.

Especially that those systems can usually be "proven to work" because they succeed in millions of cases a day.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#572

Post by silexia »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #569
hluska wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flying was one of my most irrational fears until Westjet introduced me to a pilot. He went into a truly massive amount of detail on their systems (both manual and automated) that prevent things like this. I’m not a pilot (I’m still very scared) and it’s been a long time so forgive me if my language isn’t correct. However, my understanding from that conversation is that this sort of thing is a system failure. Nobody g…

It definitely was a failure in the sense of "we need to do failure analysis and make sure we don't get this close again", but it also was a success in the sense of "ultimately, something prevented a catastrophic outcome" (and studying that, and potentially trying to replicate those positive aspects at other airports, is also something that should to happen).

The real problem here is that many overseas governments and airlines don't hire pilots based on competence, but on their coziness with the ruling class.

Events like this are not Boeing's fault and will continue until foreign airlines can get rid of corruption.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#573

Post by lolc »

onethought wrote: post #570
PKop wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just keep adding nonsense to the discussion. Is self driving going to be limited to 50km/h? No it's not, so what are you talking about? Is crashing your car at 50km/h not potentially deadly or dangerous? Of course it is. So, what are you talking about? When planes typically fly in the air, how many other planes are nearby? 0 When cars drive on the road, how many other cars or pedestrians are nearby? Often many Ju…

Apologises for triggering you here. I’m not meaning to troll, or add nonsense. I agree that there is a lot more going on with cars, as traffic and road conditions vary more than air traffic and sky conditions. But my response is the failures aren’t that bad in the car world. Autopilot (ie lane keep and cruise control) have been probably safer than human drivers. Navigate on autopilot is very stable, but limited to hi…

> I have never seen a single failure where it full speeds into another object.

What do you make of this near-miss posted recently? Allegedly, FSD was on when the car veered into the lane of an oncoming car.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/re7vxr/fsd...

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#574

Post by onethought »

lolc wrote: post #573
onethought wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apologises for triggering you here. I’m not meaning to troll, or add nonsense. I agree that there is a lot more going on with cars, as traffic and road conditions vary more than air traffic and sky conditions. But my response is the failures aren’t that bad in the car world. Autopilot (ie lane keep and cruise control) have been probably safer than human drivers. Navigate on autopilot is very stable, but limited to hi…

> I have never seen a single failure where it full speeds into another object. What do you make of this near-miss posted recently? Allegedly, FSD was on when the car veered into the lane of an oncoming car. https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/re7vxr/fsd...

Agree that isn’t good. And definitely looked like it would collide. I guess if you agree to sign up to train the NN you need to accept the fact it’s going to do this stuff.

As an aside, it seems strange to me that the high beams switch Off as they approach the oncoming car. Seems the driver disabled them… auto disabled would have meant they detected the car, which then seems unlikely they’d move into it’s path. But very hard to judge off camera alone… they might not even be on FSD. Shrug.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#575

Post by adamm255 »

Just compared the 13th December to the 20th December. WAY off, where the proper departure was at 200kts 700ft, the bad one was still at 0-75ft, at 216-234kts.

https://pasteboard.co/el9EdvFEiiEC.png - took the KML files from flightradar24 into Google Earth.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#576

Post by toss1 »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #568
toss1 wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Keep in mind that despite this, nothing seriously bad actually happened here. This is the exact wrong way to think about it. With substantial experience with managing risk, the most important thing I know is that you MUST UNDERSTAND the difference between managing risk with knowledge, technology, planning, and skill, vs rolling the dice and getting away with it. With risk management by knowledge, technology, planni…

As I said, I do acknowledge that a near miss still needs to be taken seriously, but the point is that in terms of actual harmful consequences (not "might be could have been" hypothetical ones) from this incident, there was either basically nothing, or absolutely nothing. It definitely was a failure in the sense of "we need to do failure analysis and make sure we don't get this close again", but it also was a success…

>>"ultimately, something prevented a catastrophic outcome"

The most likely "something" was Pure Dumb Luck, just a random combination of factors that happened to work out favorably. Of course, on the chance that there was some particular factor/event/action that could be replicated and reliably prevent the disaster, then sure, we should have a look.

I'd definitely make a good survey for that, but the focus really needs to be further back in the chain of events to find out what thing(s) failed.

And of course to be in any way relaxed about this because they weren't scraping up parts from 300+ bodies this time is folly.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#577

Post by captainredbeard »

bumby wrote: post #503
captainredbeard wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> nothing seriously bad actually happened here Incorrect! They exposed their pax to unnecessary risk. You do not think like an aviator.

I think the OP was focusing on the consequence, not the probability. Since risk is often defined as consequence x probability, I think you are both talking about distinct but related things

Negligence, even if it does not directly cause a negative outcome, is still a mistake and a consequence of bad aeronautical decision making.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#578

Post by bumby »

captainredbeard wrote: post #577
bumby wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP was focusing on the consequence, not the probability. Since risk is often defined as consequence x probability, I think you are both talking about distinct but related things

Negligence, even if it does not directly cause a negative outcome, is still a mistake and a consequence of bad aeronautical decision making.

I agree, that's covered by the probability part of the risk equation. Even if you got lucky and nothing bad happened, the negligence still increased the risk by increasing the probability that something may have happened.

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#579

Post by rnjesus »

redis_mlc wrote: post #334
GekkePrutser wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there no contact indicator or anything? I've never flown anything where I couldn't just look out of the window to check so I don't know but it feels like there should be :)

No there isn't. This was at night also.

that really makes me curious.. so can you retract landing gear if you’re not airborne? is there not a sensor to prevent this?

Re: Boeing 777 departing Dubai nearly had a major incident after takeoff

#580

Post by dncornholio »

onethought wrote: post #574
lolc wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have never seen a single failure where it full speeds into another object. What do you make of this near-miss posted recently? Allegedly, FSD was on when the car veered into the lane of an oncoming car. https://www.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/re7vxr/fsd...

Agree that isn’t good. And definitely looked like it would collide. I guess if you agree to sign up to train the NN you need to accept the fact it’s going to do this stuff. As an aside, it seems strange to me that the high beams switch Off as they approach the oncoming car. Seems the driver disabled them… auto disabled would have meant they detected the car, which then seems unlikely they’d move into it’s path. But v…

Where do I sign up for not wanting oncoming Tesla's to take my lane? Where do the pedestrians sign up for not having a Tesla drive over their feet?
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