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Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

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Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#571

Post by cool_dude85 »

prepend wrote: post #446
deadbunny wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How about the ability to drive around with GPS? Maps, and the ability to read them. > Or stay easily in touch with family living far away? Phones, you know good old land lines > Taking photos of your baby and having it stored on the cloud for free? Why do I need physical photos stored in the cloud? > The ability to learn almost anything for free? Have ya heard of libraries? Does technology make these more convenien…

Have you traveled using maps and GPS? They are very different, and not even comparable. It seems to me like comparing a shovel to a ditch digging machine. It is possible to navigate using maps. But not practical for the mass audience of GPS who can’t use maps. And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types). Technology is a multiplier that increases the returns on things my removing labor and letting…

>And impossible for the industries that require GPS (uber types).

By uber types, you mean taxi types? The same taxis which have existed in some form for a hundred years before GPS was invented?

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#572

Post by greedo »

dan-robertson wrote: post #276
Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

I think it's more useful to compare work requirements. In the 1970s, a family could be supported by a single earner. A house, a car, and college for the kids assuming they had decent grades. Today, that's largely impossible for the majority of Americans. Even with two incomes, (and the subsequent lower quality of life for any kids in the family), it's a huge challenge.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#573

Post by xkqd »

fundad wrote: post #524
efaref wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internet connections cost poor people nothing in 1970 because they weren't necessary and could happily live their lives without one. The real item we're looking at here is *communication*, which was cheap: the stamp you needed to send in the form for your taxes cost a few cents. You could get away with using payphones for the few phone calls you absolutely needed to make. In 2021, internet connections and cellphones…

Um good luck finding the car of your choice these days. Even before pando/trade war an in-demand model took weeks or months while other cars sit on lots. We can’t argue that quality of life is sooo much better when production is such a mess. The only reason we hear the complaints is because of quality of life. People with money can handle $1 more for an order of pretzel nuggets but make them wait and extra 2 minutes…

> “We can’t argue that quality of life is sooo much better when production is such a mess.”

Not for nothing, but I’d bet my crispest dollar that our quality of life is still outrageously good. If you have to wait a few months for the $60,000 custom build F150 of your dreams, so be it. If someone’s gotta wait 5 minutes for their McNuggets, it’ll build out their patience.

Sure the system is under stress, but the problem is and always was us. The wealth inequality exacerbates it all and we’ll all eventually act like animals over it.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#574

Post by SuoDuanDao »

Jenk wrote: post #422
guerrilla wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people just really want the right to reign Many people do. I see this as a dangerous problem. Weimar Germany also really wanted the right to reign and it didn't turn out well. The party here was founded in part by two literal Nazis and a bunch of skinheads. I don't really care what people want when they want them to rule.

I'm caught in a (philosophical?) dillemna though: I don't want the right to rise to power because I fear for the future of freedom, but I would be repressing freedom by ostracising/excluding the right from electoral eligibility. Is technocracy the answer? Have some kind of determinable objective truth rule? How do we mitigate for failure to identify the objective truth in that case? .. and on continues the shower tho…

>Is technocracy the answer? Have some kind of determinable objective truth rule? How do we mitigate for failure to identify the objective truth in that case?

That's probably not even the most pressing problem. The most pressing problem is that the rulers in a technocracy are also self-interested, and simply knowing how something works is no proof against being a bad actor. Recent history is rife with experts tilting things to their advantage, and deflecting criticisms of unfair behaviour by saying the unwashed masses simply didn't know enough about the decisions that just so happened to transfer a lot of wealth upwards doesn't inspire confidence.

If you don't respect democracy as a way to harness the wisdom of crowds, maybe you can respect it as a pressure-relief valve.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#575

Post by throwawaycities »

barney54 wrote: post #447
throwawaycities wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad this was the top comment. Wages have not kept up with cost of living for 50 years in the US. We need to stop pretending flat wages are some modern problem of inflation, and we need to stop pretending inflation is some problem caused by the pandemic.

Inflation at the levels we are seeing it is certainly a problem caused by the pandemic and the reactions to the pandemic.

Markets and corporate profits were at record highs pre-pandemic, and even with any supply chain issues the market and corporate profits are at new all time highs now.

The pandemic is just a convenient scapegoat and excuse for decades of congressional over spending and bad policy ultimately responsible for the current inflation.

Since Clinton the national debt doubled under every administration (Trump was on track if he won a 2nd term). Each administration also had trillion $ bailouts/stimulus bills. Biden already has a trillion $ stimulus ($1.9T), and that is blamed/justified on the pandemic. However, we can already predict the next administration will also have its own trillion $+ bailout/stimulus its just a question of what that will be “blamed” on to justify it.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#576

Post by ericmay »

pydry wrote: post #511
AlexandrB wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why minimum wage isn't tied to the CPI by default. I supposed there's a risk of it creating a positive feedback loop, but only a small portion of the workforce is paid at minimum wage. It seems capricious for minimum wage to only be increased when the legislative branch decides it's popular enough to fight for.

Because both parties are owned by oligarchs who would lose money if that happened. Minimum wage hikes chew through profits and profits are pretty much the #1 legislative priority because that's the primary concern of those doing the campaign financing. Same reason gun control wont happen no matter how many people get killed - ultimately its because gun manufacturers would lose money. American politics is the art of t…

> Same reason gun control wont happen no matter how many people get killed - ultimately its because gun manufacturers would lose money.

Depends on what you mean by gun control though. Many (myself included) are pro 2nd Amendment so it's not just the gun lobby/NRA who oppose some (not all) regulation.

I guess my point is that gun control (whatever that means) won't happen not only because of gun lobbyists but because many Americans support gun ownership.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#577

Post by mac01021 »

kilroy123 wrote: post #465
guerrilla wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you summarize? I don't want to watch this entire video right now even though it seems interesting.

Democracy relies on people being able to vote for what they think is right; with privacy. We removed senators right to vote for the right things in private in ~1970. After this things have gotten very bad in the US–policy wise. Polarization. Extreme lobbing. Partisanship. Fiscal policies that only favor the rich. See this: https://wtfhappenedin1971.com All of this happened after we changed the rules in Congress where…

This is interesting. Clearly _something_ happened in the early 70s (noise in the signal makes it hard to be sure of the precise year - if even there is a single discrete event). I've seen the abrupt change in economic trends attributed to different causes by different people:

- The end of the Bretton Woods monetary system

- The occurrence of peak domestic oil production in the US

- (now) removing the ability of senators to vote privately

...

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#578

Post by throwaway0a5e »

dan-robertson wrote: post #276
Gareth321 wrote: post #250

Real wages have been flat since the 1970s ( https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us... ). "Okay, so people's living standards are about the same since 1970?" Not even close. The problem with inflation is that its calculation is fraught with all kinds of selective weighting, bias, and politics. Take a look at the relative differences between the things which have decreased and increased in cost in…

> most Americans are significantly worse off since the 1970s I think this is obviously false and hurts the credibility of the rest of this comment. There are many pitfalls with measuring long-term inflation. How much did an internet connection cost in the 1970s? What about a computer? What about a smartphone? These modern technologies make peoples lives much better and were somewhere between impossible and impossibly…

You don't even need to compare to tech that didn't exist.

How many projects apartments from 1970 would you have to combine to assemble a full suite of working appliances and utilities. Now run that same test for the rural shacks and early mobile homes. How many of those people owned cars, a decent set of seasonally appropriate clothing, got their nails done, ate fresh produce out of season, etc. etc. etc?

Now run that comparison for 2021.

We're a fuckton richer. But proportional increases in the amount of our income sapped by shelter, education and medical care have more or less cancelled out all the gains in material wealth.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#579

Post by chrisseaton »

throwaway946513 wrote: post #552
chrisseaton wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in-demand model took weeks or months while other cars sit on lots. America's model of making a bunch of random models and shipping them out to sit on lots in the hope someone wants that model is bizarre. In most other countries you order exactly what you want and they build it.

It is also in part due to the explicit tie in of the dealership system by which we buy cars. Dealerships can't go away because they have baked the law around them. Automotive manufacturers are forbidden from building their own stores. Though this is a state by state issue, and Tesla is the manufacturer skirting this rule.

We also have franchised dealers in the UK. They have show-rooms and help you design the model you want and sort finance if you’ve got limited funds, and then they get it built and shipped.

Same thing - only difference is they don’t have cars in stock. It’s done on demand.

Re: Worker pay isn’t keeping up with inflation

#580

Post by missedthecue »

simonh wrote: post #77
missedthecue wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the US, a society with low union membership rates have much higher median salaries both before and after taxes and government benefits than in Europe where there are lots of powerful unions? https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm

Medians don’t tell the whole story. Incomes for high wage earners in the US have increased disproportionately compared to European countries, while wages for middle and low income groups stagnated in comparison. The value of benefits isn’t takin into account. Health care is a huge driver of inequality in the US. Tens of millions of you get minimal health care, and even many on health care plans only qualify for a fra…

I think you're confusing medians and averages. A median figure is not skewed by high earners at the top.

Second, the OECD adjusts for differences in government transfers like healthcare and education.

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