With the modern science growing every year, if anything we should expand our school program, not contract. For example, teaching basics of abstract algebra, quaternions, octonions, and sedenions, statistics, maybe basic category theory. Quantum field theory in physics, etc.
California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
571–580 of 748 posts
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#572Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is so ironic that you mention Germany,where kids are split (at age 10, 12?) into hauptschule (lower ability), realschule (medium ability), and gymnasium (higher ability). To think ramanujans of this world would benefit from lower standards is also having no idea or never knowing one in real life.
The problem with that sort of tracking is that no one wants to be stuck teaching kids with "medium" and "low" skills. So these kids are going to get matched to the worst , lowest skilled teachers, and no chance of realistically getting back on the "high" track! You can of course fix that by rewarding the best teachers and training them better in effective instruction methods (i.e. nope, the kids aren't going to just…
No. You can take a course to upgrade from middle to high tier after the fact.
A friend of mine did the middle track first and after working a bit he then went on to university. He's now doing AI programming.
The system is quite fluid if you put in some effort.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#573I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm
Second grade in Poland I remember problems like this when learning addition and subtraction: 3 + ? = 10 10 - ? = 3
They dont do abstract manipulations. They dont do the "3 + ? = 10" and therefore "10 - ? = 3". Teaching algebra means teaching abstract manipulations too, like 2x+4=10 and therefore (2x+4)/2=10/2 and therefore x + 2 = 5 and therefore x=3.
The thing you wrote here does not count as teaching algebra. It is just one preparatory step and has nothing to do with delaying algebra or not.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#574Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…
It is so ironic that you mention Germany,where kids are split (at age 10, 12?) into hauptschule (lower ability), realschule (medium ability), and gymnasium (higher ability). To think ramanujans of this world would benefit from lower standards is also having no idea or never knowing one in real life.
When I was In New York City public grade school (~1992/3) there was a similar system. It added the so called "top" classes for higher ability students and special education classes for lower ability students. These students were called "tops" and "speds" respectively with sped being a pejorative term. All that system did was pile every student with behavioral problems in special ed and all the kids who parents were on the school board in tops classes. Everyone else just went to class.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#575I was doing algebra and Russian math word problems in 4th grade (maybe earlier, it's been a while). What exactly is the logic of pushing back mathematical training to later grades? [1] 1: https://www.edhelper.com/geography/Russia_Math1.htm
Good for you. I met kids in 4th grade who struggled with their multiplication tables. What do you do for them?
> I met kids in 4th grade who struggled with their multiplication tables. What do you do for them?
That is when multiplication tables are actually taught. Multiplication itself starts to be taught before, but 4th grade is when the full tables are expected to be learned.
So, you have met kids that struggle to learn multiplication tables when they are first introduced to them. Which is actually fine, it is ok to struggle at first before getting it.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#576Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…
Exactly. The thing is that you have to adjust curriculum to the developmental stage of the INDIVIDUAL child. Teaching someone too early only wastes the time, resources and money of that teaching. Too late and you lose future options. I didn't learn to read until 1st grade but many of my peers learned in kindergarten. Individuals do NOT all reach the same learning readiness phase at the same time or same age (two diff…
Part of this is simply a function of specialization. Teaching high school let alone first grade to an extremely high academic standard doesn’t actually achieve anything significant for society. It’s arguably much better to give kids reasonable minimum standards and plenty of free time and the capacity to explore their interests. This avoids burnout and generally keeps people interested in their passions rather than simply getting through the slog.
On the other hand getting as many people as possible especially those with developmental issues to a minimum standard allows them to function in society. That pays real long term dividends and is worth significant investment.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#577Earlier quoted context omitted.
> classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable It's just "strange" that this is only done for academics, but never for athletics. The fact that academic results can be thought of in "equitable" terms, but not athletic results (aka, you must be able to run 100m in X seconds), points to some systemic, cultural bias in thinking that everyone is just as smart, and that genetics don't play a…
> It's just "strange" that this is only done for academics, but never for athletics. Because we don't teach athletics at all. PE is not even trying.
We do teach athletics, but not as classes in schools. If you want your kid to learn how to play baseball, you sign them up for little league. Similarly for other sports. Coaches teach them how to play the sport.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#578Earlier quoted context omitted.
What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…
It is so ironic that you mention Germany,where kids are split (at age 10, 12?) into hauptschule (lower ability), realschule (medium ability), and gymnasium (higher ability). To think ramanujans of this world would benefit from lower standards is also having no idea or never knowing one in real life.
The system is less about ability than which social class one belongs to.
Affluent -> Gymnasium
Poor -> Hauptschule
Realschule gets some of both
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#579Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with that sort of tracking is that no one wants to be stuck teaching kids with "medium" and "low" skills. So these kids are going to get matched to the worst , lowest skilled teachers, and no chance of realistically getting back on the "high" track! You can of course fix that by rewarding the best teachers and training them better in effective instruction methods (i.e. nope, the kids aren't going to just…
No. You can take a course to upgrade from middle to high tier after the fact. A friend of mine did the middle track first and after working a bit he then went on to university. He's now doing AI programming. The system is quite fluid if you put in some effort.
Exactly. I would add that the spirit of system is realising that people have different abilities and training them accordingly to their potential, and there is nothing wrong with that. Realschule and Hauptschule are not there to try to get everyone back into gymnasium track. The merits of Realschule and Hauptschule are well established in society since they are the pipeline of people that end up in practical and technical jobs e.g. doing machine maintenance in factories and so on.
Some snark: it is mostly intelectuals that dread at the thought and possible implication that not all people are meant to get an university degree.To achieve that goal they are willing to degrade all standards so that anyone can have a pretty paper in wooden frame.
Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide
#580Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think a few years ago I could have written a comment like this, but now I've been a teacher for a couple of years now. It is hard to teach something. Being able to do it is isn't anywhere near the level of expertise needed to: * Do it up on a board at a moderately quick but consistent cadence, with engagement and narrating the whole part through. * Not be taken off track by inevitable distractions. * Understand the…
I didn't realise teachers went under some kind of assessment to teach particular parts of their subjects. In the UK a mathematics teacher is just a mathematics teacher. They all have to teach calculus because that's part of the curriculum. If you couldn't teach calculus then you couldn't be a mathematics teacher. (That's not a boast - we're poorer and less effective at maths than you are.) What do you do if you're a…
This was not my experience in the UK - at a grammar school with a specialist mathematics designation (in the late 90s). There was a wide ability gap between the mathematics teachers, and very few could practically teach calculus.
Further, at that point in time, calculus was only part of the A’ level curriculum, and most people would never encounter it unless electing to do that course.