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A generation of American men give up on college

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Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#571

Post by sjg007 »

rgrieselhuber wrote: post #398
whywhywhywhy wrote: post #360

Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. Pleased the next generation is waking up. End of the day if the loan can't be written off, if the loan is just handed out to 18 year olds and has almost no limit then the organization that asks for the loan will inevitably balloon out of all proportion and no longer be reflective at all of the value you get ba…

The marketing on this to Gen X was incredibly effective as well. There was this pervading "common sense" that if you didn't go to college, you weren't going to be able to attract the kind of spouse that you wanted, or that you would somehow be looked down on in the reproductive market. The smart ones figured out that this was actually a handy way to filter out superficial candidates. Fast forward 25 years, and I see…

We can’t all be plumbers.. college is worth it. You get access to technology. For computers it was that way until the 90s when you could get access outside of universities. All of the front end JavaScript web apps will be replaced with automation and drag and drop UIs. This will let some people scale but all those code academy kids will need to find new skills.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#572

Post by HPsquared »

the_only_law wrote: post #486
pc86 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what you're comparing it to. You can go to a trade school and learn contracting, or be an electrician, or an HVAC installer, and in your late teens and early 20's you'll make a lot more than most college grads. But unless you branch out into your own business your income is capped lower than a generic college grad's probably is. And importantly, those careers are typically hell on your body. I know we a…

> and in your late teens and early 20's you'll make a lot more than most college grads. I question even this. I live in an area of the US without a strong union culture, and known a lot of people in the trades and it doesn’t seem uncommon to see job postings for X apprentice starting at $13-$15 and hour. I could get close to that at a shitty gas station clerk job.

Compare the apprentice to the college student: the apprentice gets paid to learn, while the student has to pay (borrow).

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#573

Post by xattt »

symlinkk wrote: post #484
xattt wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The piles of cash come at the expense of physical health. I can’t imagine being a labourer at 55. I’m a registered nurse which is a weird hybrid of university-level knowledge (understanding pharm and patho) but also it is a physical trade (turning patients, providing personal cares, mental resilience). It has roots in being vocational with a push in the last 50 years to provide an academic background to turn it into…

I can’t imagine it can be better for you physically or mentally to hunch over a desk for 8 hours a day in dead silence vs being on your feet, walking and talking to people.

There is a trade-off indeed. My overall quality of life improved.

I wore a fitness tracker then and now. I averaged about 10 km in a given shift, where as my daily total now is now closer to 5 or 6. However, now I have time and energy at the end of the day to do an actual physical activity instead of coming home like a limp noodle and taking the next day to recover.

Mentally, there is comradery that I absolutely miss. This is something really hard to explain unless you’re in it. When things got tough, the dark humour got us through. We took care of each others’ loved ones (at their family’s request). We demanded excellence from each other, and (rightfully) called out unsafe practice and supported staff as needed.

However, my home life suffered. It was fine at first as my partner is also a nurse so there was a mutual understanding. However, it started to wear on me when I had kids. I’d come home and my kids would be asleep/at school/daycare, so I’d have missed out on a day’s interaction. I realized that they’re only little once and no job in the world is worth missing out on them.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#574

Post by bmj »

jimbokun wrote: post #551
bmj wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced that all those men need to go to college, but they clearly need something. This. We are seeing the results of what was reported in the book Boys Adrift . My older son just graduated high school. He has no interest in college at the moment, and has shown a gift for working with his hands. He is currently doing a carpentry apprenticeship with an acquaintance that runs a renovation and design company.…

> [0] His crew is run by Swedish woman who was trained as a metal worker, so it isn't just a bunch of dudes, which is also great. I find it fascinating you needed to drop this comment in order to justify your son's work environment, implying that all male environments are inherently toxic. It's very rare to find people suggesting that an all female work environment is inherently bad.

I'm not justifying his work environment, merely pointing out that it is more diverse than the usual construction site. I simply appreciate that as an 18 year old, he is getting a unique experience.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#575

Post by [deleted] »

yardie wrote: post #270
10x-dev wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't match up with my experience as an interviewer at several FAANGs. HR typically wants their diversity numbers up badly so if you're gay, a woman, and/or black they are already incredibly inclined to hire you, as long as you pass the interviews. It's not a walk in the park, but you have this going for you and it's a big advantage imo.

There are a lot more people of color trying to break into the field than there are companies willing to hire them. There is a big difference between what they are saying and what they are implementing and I can say with absolute confidence that diversity is just lip service. FAANGs primarily recruit from other FAANGs. If none of those companies are diverse how are they going to diversify their recruitment?

[deleted]

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#576

Post by bernulli »

zabzonk wrote: post #488
bernulli wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really a thing. Also, wait till you hear how much an academic makes from the articles they publish, and from those lucrative research grants from big-[oil,pharma,etc].

> That's not really a thing. Sorry, it is. I've worked in higher education and I've seen it happen. What other explanation do you have for the sales of these ludicrous "textbooks"?

You can compare the price of college textbooks to the price of textbooks for professionals and you will see there is no difference. It's simply a niche market.

Personally, I prefer decade old textbooks, hardcover, beautifully typeset, clear diagrams and equations, black and white. Of course that doesn't exist for every field. But try to imagine the complaints you get from students for teaching from 'obsolete' textbooks that aren't even in four color print.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#577

Post by bradlys »

Grakel wrote: post #526
ashtonkem wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. I guess it means what you mean by “succeed”. Going to college is and always has been a reliable way towards earning more money[0]. The issue isn’t that college doesn’t work, the issue is that it’s basically an asset bubble of sorts and the cost exceeded its value. If huge chunks of future generations skip co…

Everyone going to college has turned it into high school- in every metric. I'm a professor, and college is a lifestyle, the classes are a part time job, and there is greatly reduced academic rigor and seriousness. At some age, general education should become a personal journey, or soon we'll have PhDs in general studies and everyone will need one.

> I'm a professor, and college is a lifestyle, the classes are a part time job, and there is greatly reduced academic rigor and seriousness.

Where/what do you teach? When I was doing math & cs - they (especially math) were more than a full time job. Rigor was pretty high - lots of kids failing, dropping out, or transferring schools out. I see this still happening with people I know in school now - mind you not as severe since they’re not in math.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#578

Post by rgrieselhuber »

sjg007 wrote: post #571
rgrieselhuber wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The marketing on this to Gen X was incredibly effective as well. There was this pervading "common sense" that if you didn't go to college, you weren't going to be able to attract the kind of spouse that you wanted, or that you would somehow be looked down on in the reproductive market. The smart ones figured out that this was actually a handy way to filter out superficial candidates. Fast forward 25 years, and I see…

We can’t all be plumbers.. college is worth it. You get access to technology. For computers it was that way until the 90s when you could get access outside of universities. All of the front end JavaScript web apps will be replaced with automation and drag and drop UIs. This will let some people scale but all those code academy kids will need to find new skills.

Computer Science graduates have done well and will continue to do well, although figuring out a post-40s career strategy is a huge necessity. Other fields, other than the specialties? Many will continue to suffer, IMO.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#579

Post by bradlys »

inkblotuniverse wrote: post #524
Aerroon wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you look at some CS graduate making $200,000 a year and assume they'd have made $50,000 without the degree This is the problem with assessing how valuable college is: you don't know how well off the person would've been if they had chosen not to go to college. You can't just compare all the people who went to college with all the people who didn't. You end up with a selection bias. You need to compare people who…

Also, to the degree that college is used as a signal of intelligence/skill, it's a waste for individually and collectively. You could just have the college entry exams and hand out diplomas for those, and it would be nearly as good.

Except they’re not used as a measure of intelligence or skill? They’re used as a measure of ability to go through a series of rigorous tests and do a bunch of work you might not like doing.

They’re a litmus test to see if you’d likely be good for doing a job you don’t enjoy either. End of the day - work is work and they need history to show you can do more than the bare legal minimum of graduating high school.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#580

Post by datavirtue »

pwthornton wrote: post #415
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll actually find similar gender disparities in China and India. Maybe not as pronounced as the USA, but it’s still there. Somehow there is something going on throughout the industry that crosses cultural boundaries.

I'm not commenting on gender disparities in other countries, although I have seen first hand what you are saying about China and India. What I am saying is that when I hire for various tech jobs, I get a ton of non-American candidates. It can be hard to find good American candidates at times. The demand for the jobs is there, but it's clearly not be communicated to American high school and college kids enough.

I have come to realize that most people have no idea how much freaking money people are making in the corporate world...especially in tech. They simply have no exposure except to opportuities or jobs that take a decade or more to work up to the salary that barely-graduated college kids are being pushed to in tech.

We are talking about whole population segments that dream of one day making $75k. They know that tech pays well but have no idea how outlandish the pay is compared to their experiences and expectations. They think their counterpart is tech is making $10k more than them, when in fact they are probably making $50-100k more.

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