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Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

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Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#571

Post by UncleMeat »

username90 wrote: post #558
UncleMeat wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't get "so much help" in all the years before because of the same forces that resist change at later ages. My family got a lot of hatred and resistance for just pushing back on the idea that it was okay that many of the schools (you can guess which ones) in our district simply never sent a single application to the 3rd grade GT system because their principals didn't believe that any application would ever suc…

So why not fix that problem? You can't make up 12 lost years beginning at College, putting them to compete with people who are that far ahead will just make everyone feel those people are stupid even if it isn't true.

People are trying but facing resistance from the same people who resist it at higher ages. We can’t “just fix that” because any discussion of social equity in education brings out active resistance and even death threats.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#572

Post by thethimble »

rayiner wrote: post #569
pugetsounds wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I agree with the overall premise that a GPA is harder to focus on than test prep, I disagree that poor families can afford test prep. Blowing away $1000+ so your child (who is not a star student) can potentially get a better SAT score is not going to be something that a poor family considers to be possible. Anecdotally, I write this comment from the couch of a poor family. My girlfriend’s parents (who I am…

It’s not like they just spend $1,000 all of a sudden. Poor families plan for that expense and spend the money: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/magazine/asian-test-prep-... > This summer, Wang and his two younger brothers shared a room with one bunk bed, taking turns sleeping on the floor’s bamboo mat. His parents were in the other bedroom, with his sister and youngest brother. If test-prep classes were ever a fina…

Just because one poor family has paid for test prep doesn’t mean all families can afford this expense.

OP’s comment about other needs (haircut, clothes, etc.) is very real. Where would you suggest test prep stacks relative to paying rent on time, food, clothes, etc.? Are you really suggesting that all poor families that haven’t spent on test prep are simply ignorantly misprioiritizing spend? It seems like there’s a massive gap between your life perspective and that of a poor person’s.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#573

Post by rayiner »

temp8964 wrote: post #443
BitwiseFool wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We actually had a few Pacific Islanders express anxiety with selecting "Asian American/Pacific Islander" because they were worried that identifying as such would subject them to more competition. They were advised to do it anyways.

I read somewhere says "Asian American/Pacific Islander" is a totally made up term by the federal government and basically has no root in reality.

The term “Asian American” was made up by Berkeley activists to cultivate left-wing identity among unrelated people: https://time.com/5837805/asian-american-history/

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#574

Post by roamerz »

vagrantJin wrote: post #550
roamerz wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a superficial level yes. The actual impact to people and society I think is far greater and will have an overall negative affect on society and interracial relationships. Putting myself in the shoes of someone that was bumped out of something they earned through hard work and dedication because my skin color was not correct would make me bitter to those that implemented the policy as well as (hopefully less so) th…

Theres a certain thing about race, that we can threaten to be racists if things don't go our way. Is being a racist somehow a good thing? I'm not implying we should hold hands and sing kumbaya, far from it. But why threaten to become a racist particularly? We need discourse, demonstrations and solutions, that insititions should very well look for and nuture young talent from wherever it may come from. But to threaten…

Maybe I am misunderstanding your comment or I didn’t do a good enough job writing mine. I was simply trying to put myself in that position and analyze what I might be feeling and then extrapolate that to what overall affect there might be to society.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#575

Post by nullc »

pfisherman wrote: post #15

I think the University of Texas has one of simplest and most egalitarian admissions policies that I have seen. If you graduate in the top 10 percent of your class, then you are guaranteed admission to all state funded universities. As a Californian I find it quite ironic that many policies in “conservative” Texas (ex. university admissions, property tax, income tax) are more much more progressive than what we have in…

For many people, finishing in the top of your class in highschool is challenging if you are capable but have had a relaitively difficult home life -- it requires broad spectrum high performance across years. Getting a good score on a single test is more achievable for some.

Now imagine the situation for a student with a poor family who finds themselves in a school mostly with students from wealthy families? The "top-%" metric would doubly harm them.

On the plus side, at least the top-% metric provides an incentive for students to attend 'worse' schools, which to the extent that students are benefited by mixing with more capable students, could help everyone.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#576

Post by nullc »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #229
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBF, I think when OP was talking about "conservative" vs "liberal" s/he was more less talking about progressive vs regressive systems. A regressive system takes away from those that don't have much to give to people that already have a lot. In this way - a blanket statement of guaranteeing the top x% of students admission into state schools is - I would argue fair and reasonable - but I would also argue is regressive…

Affirmative action is a shortcut, but sometimes the shortcut is the only way to make any progress. There may be a few very large issues, but also a gazillion small factors that make up systemic discrimination, both racially and against women. It is impossible for minorities to fight those individually, especially not from a position of weakness. It is more effective to counter at least a small part of the net discrim…

I'm dubious that economic standing isn't a better criteria than race in most situations where affirmative action would be desirable.

Providing programs to help those in a weaker economic position more directly addresses the need, results in programs that everyone can feel that maybe they or their family might benefit from, and avoids perpetuating raced based discrimination and the resulting resentment.

If when economic equality isn't the inequality you're attempting to correct it's so highly correlated that it should be sufficient-- after all, a big part about why we care about the lasting effects of historic racism is that it has produced a lasting weakened economic standing.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#577

Post by dcow »

throwaway210222 wrote: post #547
dcow wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that’s what it once meant it’s since been perverted. Many places use a point system that gives additional points to under privileged applicants. And then there are programs that straight up take groups of inner city kids and give them full rides. Pretty equitable on the surface but perhaps not as effective or fair as intended in the long run. These type of AA programs are what Sowell is critiquing. In his opinion…

> In his opinion these … students would be better served at … colleges with … less demanding programs where they could celebrate more success. The author is missing the point of this education. For almost ALL students the aim is to get a prestigious certificate as this is the gateway to a upper middle class lifestyle. The education is largely irrelevant. (Most are going to end up as real estate agents of financial ad…

You should read Sowell to get the full picture.

Yes, in many cases a prestigious college degree is just a social signal. But that doesn’t materially change anything. Let’s concede for a moment that all college degrees are simply a ticket to an upper middle class lifestyle. Then that seems to imply the students receiving the degree were already essentially prepared for upper middle class lifestyle upon entrance to college. Those being thrown into the mix from underprivileged communities majorly are not. It’s even worse than the charitable interpretation whereby colleges confer essential skills to their graduates. You're just giving people a fancy suit and hoping they figure out how to use it to get a job.

I’ve experienced this first hand with the posse program. One of my closest friends in college was a posse member. It has been heart breaking to watch them struggle and regress after college. My friend group and I have tried to help, motivate, and encourage, the best we could exiting college and at various points since. We helped them get into TFA. They gave up after 6 months. We tried to get him jobs. Nothing and now they’ve essentially disappeared and rarely interface with us anymore. This person has a special wit about them, they’re bright and deserving as any of a successful life. The college ticket simply isn’t enough for this person because so much of their identity is tied to the community of people they developed in the first 18 years of life. 4 years and a degree is too little too late.

So this is the entire point: it’s incredibly naive and reeks of a search for an an easy out to sit back any say that college is the only thing that matters the challenge is simply getting people in so let’s just skip the challenge and fudge the numbers and “get them in”. I don't care if your provocative econ class taught you college is just a signaling process, that’s a rash short sighted response to an intense submission to “white” guilt. The challenge is solving the challenge. The challenge is providing resources required to hoist entire communities out of their rut so they can be held to the same standards as everyone else, the answer is not to trash our standards (as we’re literally doing by removing standardized tests from admission processes) and regress our expectations to the lowest common denominator.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#578

Post by JohnL4 »

narrator wrote: post #301
shawndrost wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't point to something better than the SAT, but I can tell you what people don't like about it. SATs correlate with demographics in ways that conflict with the concept that merit is evenly distributed among student demographics.

One approach to prevent people from drawing racist inferences from standardized test scores or other statistics is to adopt the French policy of not collecting or keeping any race statistics. That would allow us to preserve meritocracy without promoting racism or depriving highly qualified applicants of the limited educational opportunities that will help them contribute the most to society.

That sounds good, but having no demographic stats is the opposite of sunlight. I don't believe it makes systemic racism go away, it just sweeps it under the rug.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#579

Post by dcow »

UncleMeat wrote: post #571
username90 wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why not fix that problem? You can't make up 12 lost years beginning at College, putting them to compete with people who are that far ahead will just make everyone feel those people are stupid even if it isn't true.

People are trying but facing resistance from the same people who resist it at higher ages. We can’t “just fix that” because any discussion of social equity in education brings out active resistance and even death threats.

Isn't it telling that stronger resistance is met in the younger years where the costs are paid by society and not the individuals? I deeply disagree that it’s the same set of individuals. Maybe I’m N=1 but I want to take focus off solving things at the college level and shift to solving things at the community level, explicitly not wholesale rejection of any program that benefits the disparaged. Rather a call to use the limited resources we allocate more effectively.

Let’s take the pessimistic stance that society is actively working to perpetually oppress the lower class and under privileged. If so then the fact that e.g. college AA is allowed to slip by but primary school support is opposed with death threats tells me that fixing primary school education is barking up the right tree or poking the hornets nest, what have you. The real threat is actual competition, which starts in the early years.

I tend to think is less of some insidious underbelly of society working to keep people oppressed and rather a more simple: good primary schools cost money and resources and we are ultimately selfish people who signal virtue yet balk come time to face reality and fund it. But that doesn't really change the conclusion. Democratize access to good primary school education. Increase funding and dismantle broken school district “gerrymandering” of funds allocation (in many cities rich communities produce rich and desirable primary schools because funds are allocated at the neighborhood level so it just perpetuates inequality). In my opinion the most effective thing a single concerned family can do would be to move to an under privileged neighborhood and send their kids to the public school there. Force yourself to confront reality and work to better the education for all. How many upper middle class virtue signaling anti racist parents (or parents to be) do you know who go gentrify a neighborhood and then send their kids to a charter school? Yeah. That’s literally SF in a nutshell for you.

Re: Why is the university of California dropping the SAT?

#580

Post by spoonjim »

starchild_3001 wrote: post #333

Cancelling SAT (especially subject exams) is the stupidest decision I've seen anywhere. Make access more fair? Sure. Cancel it? Plain wrong! How do I know? I'm one of those students who didn't have stellar high school grades, but I excelled in subject exams --- those subjects were genuinely interesting to me (math, science). I didn't find the rest of high school interesting, and I wasn't a nerd nerd studying anything…

Who could argue with you if you selected “African American?” Just say that you feel African as a result of your Middle Eastern heritage.
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