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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#571

Post by makeworld »

honkdaddy wrote: post #458
makeworld wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I mentioned in another comment: Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender…

As I mentioned in another comment, multiple studies have been done. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/

That study has issues, does it not? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6424477/

Interviewing parents seems like a problematic basis for an entirely new condition to me.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#572

Post by makeworld »

honkdaddy wrote: post #457
makeworld wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abigail Shrier is a writer and not a scientist, and it can be clearly seen even from the title of the book that she has an agenda. The thesis of the book has been "rejected by the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Endocrine Society, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health." https://en.wikipedia.org/w…

Here's a study referenced in the book. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6095578/ The layman's explanation of the phenomenon is that parents observe a rapidly onset expression of gender dysphoria in their teenage daughters which "seemed to occur in the context of belonging to a peer group where one, multiple, or even all of the friends have become gender dysphoric and transgender-identified during the same…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27610041

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#573

Post by yerwhat01010 »

dagw wrote: post #466
yerwhat01010 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> does Hubbard have an advantage so she will win 95% of the time? This graph would suggest she does: https://i.redd.it/vv4ws1848t671.jpg

If you read the article you'll see that Hubbard is top 10, but not top 3 in her weight class, and in no way a favorite to win. Even her scores pre-transition wouldn't guarantee her gold at the Olympics.

Can you at least spare some sympathy for the young woman who's unable to compete at the Olympics because Hubbard has taken her place?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#574

Post by acituan »

jeremysalwen wrote: post #563
yerwhat01010 wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell me, if sex is a continuum, does this mean that a tall, strong, bearded male is "more of a man" than a weak, short, effeminate male? Also: people with Klinefelter Syndrome are male.

I am not making specific claims about where specific individuals are classified in terms of sex, because I am not an expert. I am implying pointing out that the idea of sex as a discrete variable with two choices in humans is wrong. It is usually bimodal, in the vast majority of people (including trans people), where the chromosomes are XX or XY, and the gametes are eggs or sperm, and the external genitals are vagina…

> I am implying pointing out that the idea of sex as a discrete variable with two choices in humans is wrong.

> the gametes are eggs or sperm ... there is no law of nature that ... there aren't intermediate states for any specific dimension

Sorry for butchering your sentence but wanted to respond very specifically.

Sex, which is by far not exclusive to humans, has one primary purpose and that is sexual reproduction. And quite a lot there is governed by laws of nature. There are 2 sexes and not 1 or 3; 1 means cloning yourself and that does not introduce sufficient variance to fight against environmental change, 3 partners are combinatorially more difficult than 2 to bring together. Why gametes are dimorphic; sexual reproduction only needs exchange of genetic material, but the initial cell needs tons of other organelles to bootstrap. A process where either gamete can bring any of the organelles is exponentially more error prone and difficult to coordinate. Hence the small gamete having the bare bones mobility machinery to bring the genetic material to the heavier gamete.

There is no gamete that's between sperm or egg. Even in super rare species where an individual can change sex (some fish does this) they switch to their sex matching gamete entirely, and don't produce an inbetweener.

We can talk about continuity among secondary manifestations of sex, we can talk about fluidity of gender roles etc. and all would be fair game. But we can't call sex anything other than a discrete, binary category without destroying its scientific, cross-species, cross-millions-of-years, universal definition.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#575

Post by rocqua »

ladyattis wrote: post #450
rocqua wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I am way of base here. But it seems to me like MTF athletes simply should not be allowed in sports where testosterone would be considered doping (or some other criterion to determine whether having been biologically male is a significant advantage). My proposal would clearly suck for MTF athletes. They'd be forced to either drop from competitions, or compete in the men's league. An MTF athlete competing in a…

The problem with using testosterone as your marker is that many cis female athletes have higher serum levels naturally than trans women in this context. In fact, to get the benefits of secondary sex characteristics for trans women they often have to have LOWER testosterone and higher estrogen levels for cis women in their weight and age. This is done to overcome the masculinization they've gone through. Basically, to…

The idea was not to look at testosterone markers. The idea was that "testosterone is effective doping" might be a decent heuristic for FTM athletes have an advantage from their biology.

Whilst there are indeed cases of trans athletes with lower testosterone, that doesn't cover all cases. And it is the remaining cases that matter. Don't underestimate the damage this is doing. I visit 9gag quite often. The population there is not trans positive (and generally intollerant). Memes against trans people have become a lot more prevalent there. It is galvanizing a lot of simmering sentiment against trans people.

And the scary thing is, on this specific issue of MTF athletes, their argument doesn't immediately fall apart. That is not the kind of foothold we should want for them.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#576

Post by dagw »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #516
dagw wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article you'll see that Hubbard is top 10, but not top 3 in her weight class, and in no way a favorite to win. Even her scores pre-transition wouldn't guarantee her gold at the Olympics.

To be clear, are you saying the graph is inaccurate?

I'm assuming it is accurate, it is still misleading. It makes it look like she should be breaking records and crushing the competition, when in truth she is doing neither.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#577

Post by memling »

maybeOneDay wrote: post #401
memling wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible to be against the idea of trans women competing in female competitive sports without intentionally misgendering all trans athletes/humans. Genuine question, one about which I haven't seen much in the way of conversation—although my experience is relatively limited. Why is the subjective experience of gender privileged over the objective biology of sex? I can anticipate a couple possible responses for…

2. Is definitely the counter argument I would use - if people have preferred pronouns then what is the ethical argument for ignoring those and using words that would cause them harm? If nothing else it seems to me to come down to basic decency and respect for others. It's less about one term being "privileged" (I must confess that word seems slightly unclear to me in this context) over another and more about the ease…

> It's less about one term being "privileged" (I must confess that word seems slightly unclear to me in this context) over another and more about the ease of treating people the way they would like, with no real downsides that I can see.

Sorry for any confusion.

By privileged, I simply mean that one's gender identity instead of biological sex should govern pronoun usage.

> 2. Is definitely the counter argument I would use - if people have preferred pronouns then what is the ethical argument for ignoring those and using words that would cause them harm? If nothing else it seems to me to come down to basic decency and respect for others.

I mean I guess that is part of the reason that pronoun usage is a controversial topic, right? Why are people uncomfortable with using others' desired pronouns? It may be deeply rooted beliefs or other identitarian characteristics (religious or political convictions for example) that could cause someone psychological harm if they use preferred pronouns instead of biological sex.

In areas where legal agency is at issue—in children, for example—use of pronouns could potentially elide complex challenges and lead to irreversible physical changes that don't correspond with later preference (i.e., sex reassignment surgery or puberty blockers may have permanent effects even if the child decides later that it was a bad idea).

Now I don't know that these are particularly good arguments, but they are two ideas that I've seen online or that arise from applying a subjective-experience argument to other identity characteristics.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#578

Post by ALittleLight »

Veen wrote: post #338
ALittleLight wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion people often speak incoherently on this topic because they are trying to be politically correct. Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? It is as if "I am not questioning your identity" is a magic spell that must be chanted prior to doing exactly that so you don't get in trouble…

> Vanbellinghen is asserting that Hubbard should not compete as a woman. Hubbard identifies as a woman. In what way is Vanbellinghen not questioning Hubbard's identity? Women who take performance enhancing drugs are also disqualified from competing. No one is challenging their identity as a woman, just the fairness of their competing against women without that advantage. It is not a moral prohibition against consumin…

Vanbellinghen is not saying Hubbard used steroids. Physical differences or biological advantages between competitors aren't ever considered reasons to exclude a competitor. People who are gifted with strong and healthy bodies can become world class competitors with enough training and dedication. A swimmer isn't disqualified for being unusually tall, a sprinter unusually lean, a gymnast petite, etc.

Imagine a woman born with only one arm complaining that Vanbellinghen had an insurmountable natural advantage in weight lifting. The one armed woman would be correct. There is a Special Olympics where disabled people can compete and it would be incredibly unfair for fully-abled competitors to enter the Special Olympics. Analogously there is an Olympic division where Hubbard could fairly compete (the men's) and another division where Hubbard has an unfair advantage (the women's).

If Hubbard is a woman then Hubbard has a distinct natural advantage. To wit, Hubbard was born and developed physiologically as a man. Hubbard didn't attain this advantage unfairly by using steroids. We don't disqualify any other competitor because of the physiological advantages of their natural bodies. Why should Hubbard be disqualified? The only coherent argument is that Hubbard is not actually a woman and should compete in the men's division. This is a denial of Hubbard's identity.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#579

Post by jhgb »

uniqueid wrote: post #184
nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

I strongly suspect that you'd discover that your data forms two major clusters.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#580

Post by belorn »

GhostVII wrote: post #439
uniqueid wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

When you segment based on age and sex you are dividing up people based on their starting conditions - people who were born in the same year, and with the same sex, compete to see who is the best. When you divide based on the attributes that matter for the sport, you are basically just pre-ranking everyone and bucketing them so you only compete against those who we predict will do as well as you. Which is fine for mor…

A problematic aspect of segmenting based on age is that you get a very large bias towards people with specific birth months. Getting 11 more months compare to the competition is huge, and the data shows it.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24886927/

https://danielkiikka.com/performance/birth-month-athletic-pe...

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