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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#571

Post by imgabe »

yesBoot wrote: post #371
_-david-_ wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The person you were responding to in all likelihood meant majority of the rural / eastern part of the state not the entire state,

It does not matter. They have no power in our system to simply upend norms as they choose. They can pack up and move themselves if they don’t like it. The onus is not on everyone else to cater to them. It’s to abide laws as they are written within our constitutional system of elections and statutes overseeing them. I’m not saying that’s ideal. I’m saying that’s how it works. Down votes do nothing to make it any less…

> They have no power in our system to simply upend norms as they choose.

Yes, they do. We all do. That is literally the point of having a democratically elected government.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#572

Post by dragonwriter »

bobthepanda wrote: post #469
tppiotrowski wrote: post #467

Grant voted 1,471 to 895 for county officials “to meet and discuss relocating Idaho border.” Lake voted 1,341 to 463 for the “relocation of Idaho border” to be taken up in “county board of commissioners meetings.” Malheur voted 3,050 to 2,572 for “county court meetings regarding relocation of Oregon-Idaho border.” Sherman voted 429 to 260 in favor of “promoting moving Oregon-Idaho border.” Baker voted 3,064 to 2,307…

There’s also the question of whether or not Idaho would actually want to take them.

> There’s also the question of whether or not Idaho would actually want to take them.

There’s also the question of whether Congress and Oregon would want to support the change, both of which, in addition to the consent of Idaho’s legislature, are required under Article IV Sec. 3 of the US Constitution before a new state can be formed of the existing state of Idaho and parts of the existing state of Oregon.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#573

Post by dragonwriter »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #515
bobthepanda wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s also the question of whether or not Idaho would actually want to take them.

Could Idaho afford to incorporate that much more rural land without cities to increase its tax base? They purposely avoid even Bend because that’s where Oregon starts getting liberal.

> Could Idaho afford to incorporate that much more rural land without cities to increase its tax base?

Sure, because by incorporating more economically underperforming areaa and dropping its per capita GDP, its federal funding share under many state-federal programs woild go up, increasing the degree to which if is subsidized by the rest of the country, including the reduced Oregon, which would get lesser proportion of federal funding for the same programs by shedding underperforming regions.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#574

Post by Nbox9 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #154
cronix wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most are farmers who have been working the same land for generations. They know it inside and out under all sorts of conditions. It's kind of trivial to move a household vs an entire farm system. It can take several years to get it all up and running again, depending on your crop/animals of course. There is no political back and forth like there used to be where you'd have republicans controlling things for a time an…

>If you look at the state senate map, there is a lot more red land mass than blue. I have yet to come across a land mass that has a political leaning.

Land mass is a dog whistle for agriculture, which has a disproportion amount of political power because of the necessity of keeping grocery stores stocked.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#575

Post by pyuser583 »

nverno wrote: post #532
legitster wrote: post #492

I think it's interesting that the actual proposal is RIFE with some really, really bad analysis: https://www.greateridaho.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Grea... The best example is how they treat averages: As part of their "win-win" scenario: the new average income for the state of Oregon would rise. As if individuals would actually directly benefit from the average arbitrarily going up. Inversely, one of the benefit…

I get the feeling the people behind the proposal aren't doing it for political gain. It sounds like they are fully resigned to their group's lack of political power in the region, and just want some respite. Less competitive elections sound great to me. That would imply that whoever won would have good majority support and maybe politics would fade into the background where it belongs.

Like California? Voters are very liberal, but they hate the Democratic Party.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#576

Post by mr_toad »

bradleyjg wrote: post #471
rhacker wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reason they think it's subsidizing the rich enclaves is because they believe the rich enclaves aren't really working - they're just generating revenue from information advantage. We're just building systems of control and making money from it. Compare that to them cleaning out a grain cart or chopping up a 300 pound pig. What is work? And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for tha…

> And why did I make nearly $300 today vs them who will make $300 for that pig that they had to raise for 6 months? Effort has little to do with value. Utility also has little to do with value. See the diamond/water paradox for that second part. There are certainly abuses in our society, rent seeking and outright fraud exist. But this childish rejection of capitalism that’s become trendy lately is tiresome. Capitalis…

> become trendy lately

It’s not a new phenomenon, or unique to America or the west.

You can dozens of passages of the bible critical of the merchants and money makers, and many of them are arguments still echoed today.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#577

Post by AshWolfy »

URSpider94 wrote: post #85
mjevans wrote: post #35

Given the article's mention of Rural vs Urban I lean towards the belief that this is driven by a sense of both conservative values in government and probably a lack of understanding in how the government of the people serves the people. More precisely how taxes and math work. The GAO and similar offices should do a better job of preparing reports on where every collected tax dollar is being spent; both in the physica…

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

These days its more a massive accumulation of debt and unfunded liabilities in suburbs and rural areas, but basically yeah

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#578

Post by autokad »

halostatue wrote: post #557
autokad wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 ) I dont think you understand how sensitive the global food supply is to changes. #2) The US isn't just a net exporter of food, its one of the dominant food producers (in exports) in the world. A country like Canada only became a net exporter of food in ~2019. These US exports are primary stables like corn, beef, pork, etc. #3) f-35 funding is tangential to the conversation. bringing it up only makes you sound un-…

1. I do, in fact, understand. I also understand that the US’s subsidies distort international markets, and that the US’s entire food aid program (which is a large part of those subsidies) severely distorts local markets and disincentivizes farm production in poorer countries. 2. They are _American_ staples. They are not necessarily staples in receiving countries, and as noted above, may actually be distorting local m…

and you somehow think if the US stopped producing food and started importing all of its food, it wouldn't cause famine.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#579

Post by astrognomy »

Ccecil wrote: post #504
astrognomy wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your right to be skeptical as it's not the case. It's being driven by individuals within Idaho moving to more urban parts of Idaho. Locals say it's all "Californians," but that is just short hand for folks out of state but surveys and data from ITD (Idaho Transportation Department, i.e. DMV) show it's urbanization at work. Granted there are folks moving to Idaho from outside of the state but they are the minority cau…

In our case (Cd'A) the majority coming in are not from Idaho moving to more urban areas...they are from out of state. Not sure I would trust the DMV stats during the covid times too since I see a lot of unregistered/expired tags right now. Most people from the rural areas here cannot afford a house in Coeur d'Alene...it is primarily people coming from other markets where a $600k house is considered a steal. edit: I h…

For the record, there are now huge sections of Boise now where 600k is considered a steal. Boiseans are among those other markets and they moving to other parts of the state as part of this housing shortage.

Anecdotally, just as you've seen unregistered/expired tags, I've had two coworkers use the new remote work freedom to move to CdA/Sandpoint area.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#580

Post by Ccecil »

astrognomy wrote: post #579
Ccecil wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In our case (Cd'A) the majority coming in are not from Idaho moving to more urban areas...they are from out of state. Not sure I would trust the DMV stats during the covid times too since I see a lot of unregistered/expired tags right now. Most people from the rural areas here cannot afford a house in Coeur d'Alene...it is primarily people coming from other markets where a $600k house is considered a steal. edit: I h…

For the record, there are now huge sections of Boise now where 600k is considered a steal. Boiseans are among those other markets and they moving to other parts of the state as part of this housing shortage. Anecdotally, just as you've seen unregistered/expired tags, I've had two coworkers use the new remote work freedom to move to CdA/Sandpoint area.

Which leads to another issue which isn't brought up enough.

What is going to happen to all the remote high paid workers when it becomes the common trend to scale pay to the area?

Currently...you need to make 3x the average pay to be eligible for a house. Anyone who loses their job that has moved to the area is going to find that there is little to no high paying jobs for quite some distance.

It has already happened to more than one person I know locally. Not saying they will have any issue selling their house.

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