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Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

reuters.com

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Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#571

Post by splithalf »

pilingual wrote: post #233
jmacd wrote: post #11

As an outside observer, who has no crypto holdings at all, but is very deeply invested in the public stock market with a heavy weight on technology stocks... this doesn't look like a crash to me at all. It just looks like some steam being let off and old investors cash out and new investors get more comfortable with how much and where to invest. I consider crypto currency as it is to be an elaborate Ponzi scheme (per…

Thank you for the disinterested take! It's refreshing to see this as a top comment when so often I see "Crypto makes me sick" which offers zero information and doesn't belong on HN. A few points to the repetitive comments I keep seeing: 1. Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme. Various cryptocurrencies operate in such a manner, but Bitcoin and Ethereum have value propositions: settlement and programmable money respectively.…

“Why waste people's time with your vacuous comments?”

Because my opinions are not vacuous to me.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#572

Post by inter_netuser »

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #534
andrewaylett wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But selling Bitcoin is _exactly_ an older investor being paid out by a newer investor. IMO it's Bitcoin in combination with Tether that's the actual Ponzi. Unfortunately unlikely to unwind until and unless people start needing to redeem Tether rather than selling it on.

> IMO it's Bitcoin in combination with Tether that's the actual Ponzi. Bingo. The problem is, the big players have no interest in unwinding the scheme. As long as exchanges can wash trade USDT:BTC to drive the inflow of retail investment, things keep going. What'll be interesting is if BTC continues to fall. I think the low $30k is a support level; if it crashes below that, I bet we're going to see more outflow from…

undercapitalized exchanges? you think they are running on fractional reserve?

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#573

Post by intotheabyss »

bhk wrote: post #468
intotheabyss wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means that ETH which is a decentralized cryptocurrency can be used as a collateral for an algorithmic stablecoin called RAI that adjusts its price based on the price of ETH from a Uniswap price feed and a PID controller and arbitrage. To mint RAI you need to deposit ETH. The goal of RAI is to create a stablecoin which dampens the price movements of ETH over long periods of time.

Are you talking about the RAI that traded at $0.0186 a few days ago and that you can now sell for $0.00022 ? That's a "stablecoin"? https://atomars.com/trading/RAIUSDT

No, that's not the RAI I'm talking about. This is https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/rai

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#574

Post by joshuahaglund »

imtringued wrote: post #430
icyfox wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keynesian economics got us out of the actual Great Depression as well, if you consider FDR's decision to get off the gold standard and start trading dollars as a floating currency on the market. Fixed monetary supply might be one thing in theory, but fixed credit supply is the death knell to an economy. And the two are usually complimentary. Monetary supply can fill in the potholes of weakening credit supply when the…

>That said there is certainly something that's personally appealing about an asset that's guaranteed to maintain the supply side of the equilibrium. It's appealing because it keeps politicians honest, but if you have honest politicians it is just a thought experiment.

Please explain how exactly a constrained monetary supply keeps politicians honest? Seems to me that is pretty much entirely dependent on an informed and participatory electorate.

I think a constrained monetary supply just means the politicians we elect have less influence over the economy than the people with the most wealth. In either scenario, there will be untrustworthy politicians who need to be out voted or voted out.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#575

Post by intotheabyss »

UncleMeat wrote: post #553
intotheabyss wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be shocking to people, but there are people in crypto that own zero Bitcoin. You can dislike Bitcoin and still be bullish on crypto.

I'm not sure it is possible to be bullish of crypto in general. Surely at most a small number of tokens will win and the rest will drop to zero. Owning the entire ecosystem isn't diversification like investing in many companies.

Oh I absolutely agree. I think cryptos will be top heavy from a market perspective, where the top cryptos will have something like >80% of the total marketcap by the end of the decade.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#576

Post by celticninja »

inter_netuser wrote: post #572
35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO it's Bitcoin in combination with Tether that's the actual Ponzi. Bingo. The problem is, the big players have no interest in unwinding the scheme. As long as exchanges can wash trade USDT:BTC to drive the inflow of retail investment, things keep going. What'll be interesting is if BTC continues to fall. I think the low $30k is a support level; if it crashes below that, I bet we're going to see more outflow from…

undercapitalized exchanges? you think they are running on fractional reserve?

That is pretty much the accusation against tether. Most exchanges use it, so rather than the exchanges being knowingly undercapitalized, they are by virtue of using tether. Which is supposed to be 1=1 backed with the $. Which it isnt, and it is not clear how backed it actually is.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#577

Post by inter_netuser »

zepto wrote: post #125
RivieraKid wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. I hate the arrogant stupidity of the crypto cult.

It may be arrogant sounding, but it’s not stupid. It is in the financial interest of Bitcoin holders to talk up Bitcoin and defend it to the death. The senior management of regular banks in many countries are often required by law to deny that the bank is in jeopardy right up until the moment they close the doors, as a way to prevent bank runs. Because crypto is distributed, every holder is a bank manager, and must d…

Luckily, it's ledger is open for everyone to see, unlike banks' ledgers.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#578

Post by earnesti »

pradn wrote: post #292
kllrnohj wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin & Ether are both down -40% from a week to a month ago. Both of those are, in theory, large enough that investors "letting off some steam" shouldn't move them that much. If $SPY dropped 40% we'd all call it a crash. This isn't that different. Also unlike the stock market, crypto is under the delusion of being a viable currency. If USD or Euro dropped even 20% we'd start questioning if it's a recession, much le…

It doesn't seem like anyone believes cryptos are supposed to be currencies any more. All the talk around them is around them being a new, exciting, and potentially very lucrative investment class. If you go to Coinbase's front page, you see that you can buy and sell them, like you can with Robinhood. It's not trying to be a PayPal. The currency-ness does serve an important purpose. It helps bring in investment for th…

I use Bitcoin as payment for products and services all the time. I dont talk about it though, why would I? It is boring. I dont talk about how I use paypal or bank accounts to pay for stuff either.

There are certain segments eg. travel where bitcoin/crypto has worked well for years.

When I talk with friends about BTC, it is about price because that is the interesting part. The fact that I used it to pay for something is just not interesting.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#579

Post by vmception »

tastyfreeze wrote: post #513
marcusverus wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> USDC, DAI, USDT are all used more than ever, orders of magnitude more Even these cryptos aren't being used as currencies per se. They're popular, sure, but they're popular because A) they allow traders to move funds between crypto 'investments' without converting to fiat (i.e. without triggering cap gains), and B) They allow investors to "avoid market volatility" (but in a manner far riskier than fiat, given that e…

Like-kind exchange doesn't apply to cryptocurrencies. Exchanging BTC for a stablecoin does trigger capital gains as does selling a stablecoin for fiat. In the BTC-USDC scenario it is a little trickier to calculate the basis in USD but capital gains taxes still apply.

It isnt tricker at all. Very simple math.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#580

Post by cableshaft »

zaphar wrote: post #504
cableshaft wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, used USDC just last night to buy a new computer, just before this big crash happened, thankfully (since I converted some crypto to do it). Actually using that for its intended purpose.

That's like saying I payed for my new house with stocks. Which is not the same thing as stocks being a currency. What actually happened is that you liquidated some crypto and used the proceeds to buy your new computer. You even say that directly in your parenthetical. (since I converted some crypto to do it)

I converted from one form of cryptocurrency to another cryptocurrency (USDC is USDCoin, a Stablecoin).

I was paying on NewEgg using their BitPay method, which supports payment with only the following cryptocurrencies: Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Ethereum, Wrapped Bitcoin, Dogecoin, and 5 stablecoins (GUSD, USDC, PAX, DAI, and BUSD).

I have Bitcoin and could have paid directly with that, but I wanted to keep holding it and pay with Litecoin. So I converted that to USDC (for free, but I will have to pay taxes on the gains next year since every conversion or purchase is a taxable event in crypto in the US), and then sent that to Bitpay.

So yes, I still maintain I used USDC for its intended purpose.

I did, however, do what you said and liquidated some Ethereum to fiat several years ago (right at the previous bull run's top, by happenstance, got super lucky then) to pay for the downpayment on my home. I would have paid with it directly if I could but there was just no mechanism for it, at least not back then.

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