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Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

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Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#571

Post by asperous »

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

My issues with this are it's ageist and unequal, teenagers are people too. Many teenagers work harder and are smarter then many adults. It glosses over the fact that some teenagers sadly have to support children and adult parents as well. Symbolically it tells teenagers they aren't worth as much as adults. It could reduce age diversity in some jobs which can be important.

I never understood the argument that middle class teenagers either should be given opportunities, or the opposite that they should leave those opportunities to adults. Society shouldn't be picking and choosing who gets what opportunities based on things as broad as age.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#572

Post by [deleted] »

richardjennings wrote: post #397
mywittyname wrote: post #20

I've long felt that many jobs paid unsustainably low wages. There are a lot of jobs where your net pay is below zero, long term, when you factor in the external costs associated with working, such as needing transportation. These jobs have been propped up by debt. It looks like the pandemic has put and end to this. Transportation costs have skyrocketed to such a degree that it's basically impossible for a poor person…

"and now the exploited have been drained dry". I do not think this is true in the absolute currently. I do think that the modern economies are imparting pressures that will make this more true over time. The question every one asks is "What is the point?". The answer is increasingly, there is no point. What about the answers previous generation might have had; send money home, improve life chances with an education,…

[deleted]

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#573

Post by fukmbas »

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

Why do the dumbest ideas come from HN?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#574

Post by AnthonyMouse »

atoav wrote: post #437
syshum wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>which force working employees into poverty I think you have a widely unorthodox defination of "force" as no one is forced to take any job at any wage. Force in the equation would come from the government using the threat of government violence to force a wage on a business owner. A person that voluntary accepts a job for X wage is not "forced" to do so.

Yeah but the job market is not a free market, because not getting a job is existential for those seeking the job, while the company can usually just survive when a position is not filled for a certain time. This means to make this a free market many nations did the reasonable thing and introduced measures like minimum wages and unemployment benefits. This way when you loose your job the balance of power evens out a l…

> Yeah but the job market is not a free market, because not getting a job is existential for those seeking the job, while the company can usually just survive when a position is not filled for a certain time.

This is, to begin with, not true. It's common for small businesses to be operating at the margin. If you don't have someone making the sandwiches then you don't have revenue and you still have rent and utilities. That math puts you out of business in a hurry and then the owner (whose wages came out of the revenue they now don't have) is facing the same circumstances as the employee.

But on top of that, even if you existentially need a job, that doesn't mean you need that job. You can pick the one that pays the most.

Where this falls down is when all of your alternatives are terrible. But if all of your alternatives are terrible, prohibiting you from choosing the one that was the least terrible (e.g. because it's right across the street but pays $2/hour less instead of being a two hour commute for $2/hour more) is not actually helping you.

To do that you need something like lower housing costs (so the wage you can earn is enough to live), or some kind of free community college so you can learn a trade that pays better, or a UBI. Not a minimum wage that could take away the job you currently existentially need.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#575

Post by fukmbas »

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

If your business model cannot support affordable wages for employees, then it is not a good business model. Super simple...

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#576

Post by rufus_foreman »

adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #570
rufus_foreman wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

20th percentile apartments don't get advertised on apartments.com, that costs money.

So do you have a link to a reliable figure as to what 20th percentile rent is? "I'm sure you would agree with me if you knew a statistic that I'm not going to share with you" is hardly a convincing argument.

I'm not doing your homework.

The original post said the average cost for a studio was $900. You claim that the 20th percentile cost is $1000.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, so you go figure out what the real numbers are and then we can talk.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#577

Post by TheRealSteel »

dogman144 wrote: post #439
atoav wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it. McDonalds pays minimum wages in most european nations, yet their menu isnt that much more expensive than in the US. Maybe they have a slimmer margin over here, but they are still profitable. That implies that the model is (in principle) just alright, but there are financial flows that will have to change in the US. Of course you don't like to pay more for the labor you use to generate profit — ideally…

Well, without knowing how the Corp is setup, that’s a bad example as this could easily exist: an international company can very easily be paying for high wages in one nation (ie loss leading) by low wages in another. Or staying profitable and with open doors. And so on. Unless you’ve done an FSA class and you can explain me your thinking more, it’s worth appreciating there are a ton of levers that impact Corp finance…

If their entire European, Australian and New Zealand operations weren't profitable, why would they run them at all? They wouldn't use American profits to support them, they'd shut them down.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#578

Post by lolinder »

pessimizer wrote: post #493
zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

You don't want to create a class of people who get paid badly because their jobs are terrible (and also low-skilled.) The only reason you would want a lower minimum wage for young people is because young people are stupid, and you want to put them into a job where they can learn i.e. low-skilled, but ramping up over time, like an apprenticeship. Paying people almost nothing to work a horrible job because you can get…

You keep using the word class, but I don't think it's applicable here. If everyone in the country is subjected to a lower minimum wage while a teenager, there is no disadvantaged "class".

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#579

Post by a3n »

jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

They can charge what they need to be profitable, after discovering how much they need to pay workers to apply and show up.

Which will drive away many customers who have become accustomed to cheap service built on "shit jobs."

At some point an equilibrium will be reached, the customers who can't or won't pay more will drop out of participation, and we'll have the true market for service built on good jobs.

No customer deserves cheap drinks and service built on shit jobs.

"Oh, but all those jobs will be lost."

They're already lost, the difference is that it's the workers making the decision.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#580

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #576
adgjlsfhk1 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you have a link to a reliable figure as to what 20th percentile rent is? "I'm sure you would agree with me if you knew a statistic that I'm not going to share with you" is hardly a convincing argument.

I'm not doing your homework. The original post said the average cost for a studio was $900. You claim that the 20th percentile cost is $1000. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, so you go figure out what the real numbers are and then we can talk.

I claimed 20th percentile IN MINNEAPOLIS was $1000. That just means Minneapolis is more expensive than the national average. You're the one claiming that a 20th percentile apartment is affordable on minimum wage, so how about a source for what that figure is?
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