> "Google copied approximately 11,500 lines of declaring code from the API, which amounts to virtually all the declaring code needed to call up hundreds of different tasks. Those 11,500 lines, however, are only 0.4 percent of the entire API at issue, which consists of 2.86 million total lines. In considering “the amount and substantiality of the portion used” in this case, the 11,500 lines of code should be viewed as…
Read Thomas' dissent, it'sabsolutely insane. He says how those 11k lines are basically 97.5% of Java's entire usefulness, and billions of dollars of value to Oracle from an Amazon deal. Absurdity.
Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
571–580 of 965 posts
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#572First of all, very good news. Second of all, what does this mean for Fuchsia, Dart, and related projects? I always assumed they were a hedge against Google having to pay exorbitant licensing fees to Oracle. Now that the threat has disappeared, will those projects be sunsetted too?
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#573So what if APIs were also patented?
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#574While the result is a big relief, I think it's not as decisive as I'm noticing some headlines (and commenters) are claiming. One of the big open questions is "are APIs copyrightable?" The court skirted that question, and instead focused on whether it was fair use: > To decide no more than is necessary to resolve this case, the Court assumes for argument’s sake that the copied lines can be copyrighted, and focuses on…
Thomas's dissent explicitly points this out. Without diving into "are APIs copyrightable?", the majority are skipping what should have been evaluated first before saying if they were fair-use or not.
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#575Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm confused how not using the GPL version makes this relevant to the GPL.
Dual licensing is a common reason to GPL your code: Letting people have and use the source under restricted terms, and paying for an enterprise license otherwise. If Google can steal the code from the GPL version and then just not obey the license or pay for an enterprise license, dual licensing is dead and no business will open source their code under a dual licensing model.
Please.
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#576Which of Breyer's clerks drafted this? They clearly understand many tech issues and I hope they find their place on some Federal circuit to herald an era of logic in tech law. "Google’s limited copying of the API is a transformative use. Google copied only what was needed to allow programmers to work in a different computing environment without discarding a portion of a familiar programming language. Google’s purpose…
Why do you think Breyer and the other assenting justices wouldn't be able to come to this kind of decision without a clerk taking the lead?
The way that the Court and every one of the justices work is that he/she will draft out with the clerks the broad principles and approach that he/she wishes the decision to be crafted around. Which cases influence the precedent, which regulations take what role in the decision, what issues to "turn" the case on, etc.
It's the job of the clerks then to go research, summarize, and create the bulk of justice's position based on knowledge of the details. They (justice + clerks) then review and talk about the evolving draft opinion several times over the course of months, circulating drafts to the other justices (and their clerks) as well. And note, most of the facts/issues already came up in the lower courts cases and rulings, so there has already been some fair surfacing of the details of the dispute (and what other judges believe the important issues to be) as it made its way through the system.
The justices have many opinions per term to do this for, and you can be very sure that while the "authoring" justice has been briefed on (and very well has tested the ideas with the clerks in detail), the summary of how APIs work and their legal status is not based on the justice him/herself wading through license agreements and "figuring out" the structure of the code or its legal status.
So, that is not to say that the justices are ignorant of the details (far from it), but the level of detail needed to form the groundwork of the opinion is heavily shouldered and created by the law clerks. But the main conclusions of the opinion are definitely of the justice him/herself (with input from the clerks).
-- By the way, the clerks (you may not realize) already have had a role in getting the case even to be heard before the Supreme Court, in briefing and summarizing the underlying appealed case on why it should be ripe for a decision, so they already many of the issues at stake and how to think about them.
Maybe think of it like a software engineering manager and the individual developer. The manager can lay out the principles by which a certain piece of code is to be written, and the capable developer will identify all the issues, test cases, etc., and they will review it together at various stages. You would not say that either could have done it without the other. It's kind of like that (when software engineering works like it should).
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#577I like the outcome from a public policy perspective. The policy the court has imposed is good for the industry. But let's make no mistake -- this is legislating from the bench. The wholesale expropriation of an API is not the same thing as taking a small snippet of a copyrighted work for analysis, commentary, criticism, or scholarship. It is core the value of the work. Indeed, it's the most important part, because it…
If I specify that my company takes orders that only have certain header columns and must have specific format in certain fields on the bill of goods, is that /specification/ (not the full text I wrote, but the facts of the specification itself) copyrightable? Why? I don't see that the abstract facts of a specification of interoperability should receive any kind of copyright.
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#578Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a large scale defeat of the GPL and dual licensing, so I'm not sure how this could be anything but a sad day for sustainable open source development. If you're big enough and have enough lawyers, there's no reason to license software you want to build on.
On the other hand, it's the sort of ruling that could make companies less skittish about using GPL software.
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#579Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a very good summary. This is a case where there probably is no legally "correct" decision based on the law/precedent. It comes down to fair use and to what degree you can reasonably extend it to this case. For most people reading this, the decision is the "right" one. But I'm not sure to what degree one side or the other is better supported as a matter of law/precedent.
I strongly agree with the outcome but the cost in the other direction is good API design is a creative process. If you sit down and design a kick-ass API for a year, another person who re-implements is inheriting that design, and its benefits, for free. I do wonder if another case will wind its way up one day where the defendant lifted the API not for interoperability but because it was a clean or clever interface. (…
Because here it's allowable for a product that isn't competing, and is being leveraged for interoperability/ease of users to adopt (rather than for how clean/clever it is).
What if someone had copied Stripe early on, though? Stripe's big claim at launch was "payment processing in 7 lines of Javascript" or similar. Obviously there were other barriers to entry, but what if someone else entered the market at that time with a similar (or even identical) interface? That question was left unanswered.
Re: Google’s copying of the Java SE API was fair use [pdf]
#580> "Google copied approximately 11,500 lines of declaring code from the API, which amounts to virtually all the declaring code needed to call up hundreds of different tasks. Those 11,500 lines, however, are only 0.4 percent of the entire API at issue, which consists of 2.86 million total lines. In considering “the amount and substantiality of the portion used” in this case, the 11,500 lines of code should be viewed as…
So if Java had just bloated their code and those apis code footprint represented a larger % of the overall they’d be guilty? Or if Java trimmed a bunch of non essential packages into modules/extensions Google would be guilty It seems to me the judge is saying, “the house was full of 10 tons of jewelry but the robbers only took 10 pounds so that isn’t really stealing lol “
The class of actions classified as fair use describe situations where arguably society can loosen the reigns to substantial benefit to society without destroying the incentive to create.
A classic example would be quoting books to discuss them. The free exchange of ideas greatly enriches society while encouraging not replacing readership.
Reducing it to an analogy to physical property obscures instead of enlightens because it misses all the ways a copyright is different than a right to physical property.