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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#571

Post by ericd »

exporectomy wrote: post #539
jl6 wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally agree, except I’m not sure there is a bright line between the obviously-worthwhile precautions you mention and the paranoid overprecautions that might themselves carry harm. Seatbelts... yes. Choking first aid... yes. Healthy eating, talking to them frequently... probably? Lots of sunlight and fresh air... maybe?

About to be a parent and the main conclusion I've come to is that being consistently reliable, caring and responsive to any distress the baby has in the first 6-9 months is number one more important thing to keep in mind. Those physical health things are either obvious or hardly matter but making a kid who grows up to experience a lifetime of emotional suffering due to poor attachment styles or mental health problems…

I'm curious, does your conclusion preclude sleep training, which frequently involves some amount of "crying it out"?

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#572

Post by andrewem »

paddlepop wrote: post #383
cashewchoo wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We sleep-trained our first starting at about 6 months old, and we're about to do the same with our second. The strategy we used was some kind of incremental back-off. Put them down, light out, leave. Wait 5 mins. Go on, give them a little hug or back pat, leave. Wait 10. Then 15. Then 20. Then 30. Then stay at 30 until they fall asleep. Next night, 10, 15, 20, 30, 30, 30... next night, 15, 20, 30, 30, 30.... At some…

This is called the Ferber method and it worked very well for us as well. Note to others considering using it, the method is just as much about the ritual leading up to sleep (bath, reading a book, etc)

“Solve your child’s sleep problems” by Richard Ferber, M.D. is the book which includes this. It also includes a lot more, including an overview of sleep physiology including phases, as well as lots more like details about night terrors and other “partial arousals”.

The big thing he says for going to sleep is to set up the desired sleep associations (eg, alone in the crib in a dark quiet room if that’s what you choose) and then ensure the child falls asleep in that situation and it doesn’t change while they sleep. So for instance, don’t let them fall asleep on your lap then move them to the crib, because when the next normal sleep cycle ends and they partially wake up, they will discover something is different and get upset.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#573

Post by BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 »

Infant monkeys cling to their mothers 24x7. Until very recently the vast majority of humans slept in one room huts with the youngest child next to the mother. My kids had their own beds, but slept with me until nine or ten until they decided to prefer their own beds.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#574

Post by abraxas »

I have a nine year old who still gets tucked in every night and I spend half an hour by his bedside every night listening to audiobook stories or just talking about his day.

He was never a good sleeper. Since birth he needed human contact to fall asleep and stay asleep. Perhaps it's a genetic wiring or perhaps it's because wife and I are not believers in "sleep training". Our idea is that kids will loosen these ties on their own terms when ready i.e. when their nervous systems grow mature enough to feel safe sleeping on their own.

Many will scoff at the fact that we have a nine year old who has a sleep routine of a five year old. And yet... he is one of the best performing kids in class, always outgoing, self confident, popular with peers and teachers alike without being an asshole to anyone younger or older.

I'm a parent and I'm never going to judge another. But I think we're doing something right by our kid. But spending all this time by his side is taxing, not gonna lie.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#575

Post by ineedasername »

jqgatsby wrote: post #325
eurusdac wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, my advice to any new parent would be to listen carefully to advice about how not to drown your child while bathing them, and how to make sure they're not suffocated by their bedding. Both real issues where some simple practices avoid the small risk of an absolutely catastrophic outcome. Then take all other advice with a pinch of salt. Just follow your best instincts and do what seems right. Your child will b…

Hey, wait, what is the advice to avoid drowning, other than not leaving them alone? Is there some subtle hazard I’m unaware of?

If you don't know just how little water it takes to drown in, then the risk isn't obvious. A newborn that can't easily move and roll over can drown face down in an inch of water if they manage to get into that position, which even gentle sliding around in a baby tub can facilitate.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#576

Post by ineedasername »

hadlock wrote: post #507
Viliam1234 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not leaving them alone is enough, but to make people actually follow the rule, it is useful to tell them that kids are easily able to drown even in unbelievably small amounts of water, and also in situations where drowning seems almost impossible .

I learned something today, and ours is about to turn 4 months. None of this was communicated to us, probably because it's expected that you pick up most of this tribal knowledge via, pre-covid, other parents in your socio-age group. We attended an infant cpr class via zoom, learned nothing. We at least got the message about SIDS, but the lack of tribal knowledge in the first six weeks was pretty brutal as first-time…

My first two kids (and especially the first one) we left hospital with a feeling of "why on Earth would they just let us walk out with a baby? That seems crazy, we have no training at all in this!" The feeling was incredibly surreal with my first one.

For my third, they made us watch a series of videos on a range of topics over about 2 hours, which made me think "Yes, of course, this should be the absolute minimum required for a new parent".

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#577

Post by iimblack »

gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

The struggle we’re having is the baby scratches himself nonstop. No matter how much we trim his nails, if we leave him alone at night he’ll be bleeding everywhere. Other than that he sleeps relatively well.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#578

Post by NovaJehovah »

recursive wrote: post #541
NovaJehovah wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said it has to be a grueling slog? I said do your best, not wear a crown of thorns. I don't think it necessarily has to be hard, but people often make it harder than it needs to be because they're unwilling to make personal sacrifices. I just don't think we should give people participation trophies. If you're not doing a good job and you know it, you should face reality and fix it, not be told "there's no right o…

I inferred that you thought that gdubs was not doing their best. You used the phrase "strongly disagree". I'm not sure which part you strongly disagree with. Nor can I tell why you think gdubs is not doing their best. For what it's worth, I definitely agree with gdubs point of view. I'm less clear on what you're saying though. When you say "unwilling to make personal sacrifices", does that mean unwilling to ever make…

I didn't mean to shame the OP, though I can see how it might have come across that way. What I take issue with is the implication of relativism. That as long as you love your kids, it's fine if you just do whatever is convenient or easy or comes naturally to you, and there are no better or worse ways to parent. I think that's a copout and that our kids deserve better.

I understand why people do sleep training. We were on the verge of it ourselves until we learned more and were confronted by how hideously wrong it felt on an emotional level. Everyone in the US pushes you toward it, particularly pediatricians. But I think that most parents know deep down that it's wrong, and that they are doing it for themselves, not the baby.

I don't think we should pretend it's all the same. These things matter.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#579

Post by NovaJehovah »

heleninboodler wrote: post #535
NovaJehovah wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said it has to be a grueling slog? I said do your best, not wear a crown of thorns. I don't think it necessarily has to be hard, but people often make it harder than it needs to be because they're unwilling to make personal sacrifices. I just don't think we should give people participation trophies. If you're not doing a good job and you know it, you should face reality and fix it, not be told "there's no right o…

> Who said it has to be a grueling slog? I said do your best, not wear a crown of thorns. > I don't think it necessarily has to be hard That's not necessarily coming through in your message, for what it's worth.

I just think that if it is hard, it's up to the parents to deal with, one way or another. They should either suck it up and slog through or change something in their lives so they can handle things better and it's not so hard anymore. I just hope they won't do something that they know is worse for the kid because it's easier for them.

In my opinion, sleep training generally falls in this category. People do it because they're exasperated and neither parent is willing to do something hard--like live with sleep deprivation or put a career on hold. They generally don't do it because they genuinely believe it's best for the baby, though they will try to come up with rationalizations to that effect after the fact.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#580

Post by [deleted] »

gamblor956 wrote: post #487
gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.) This article calls it an ‘extreme’ practice. Sleep training appears to be standard for all the parents I know, in the U.S. and otherwise. I think it's more likely that the author of the article has extreme views on parenting that they're tying to impose on others.

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