Stripe bans Trump campaign • Hacker News Board

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#571

Post by nobody9999 » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:42 AM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #477

kayodelycaon wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the article in question, they are banning someone who blatantly committed criminal acts against the state. Literally an attempt by the president to overthrow the government. Treason is a crime that's enforceable with a death penalty.

For someone with such deep knowledge of the law you surely must know that a person can be considered a criminal only after being convicted by a court. So in this case the punishment was carried out based on allegations only.

>For someone with such deep knowledge of the law you surely must know that a person can be considered a criminal only after being convicted by a court. So in this case the punishment was carried out based on allegations only.

You're absolutely correct that in the US no one may be punished by the state without due process. But Stripe isn't a government and refusing to do business with someone doesn't require a criminal trial.

Or are you claiming that Stripe cannot choose its customers unless a court has convicted that customer of a crime?

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#572

Post by ineedasername » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:42 AM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #346

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #182

The debate here seems like fuel for antitrust issues. A single company deciding not to do business with someone (over actions, not innate stuff like protected classes) should be fine, but when you let them get to be a backbone service, then issues surface like those discussed by everyone here. If google, for example decided to stop surfacing trump stuff in results, that could be a real issue. Not because it’s google…

To the extent that these separate companies are actually coordinating a takedown of a third party, they could run afoul of anti-racketeering / RICO statutes. Not that I would hold my breathe waiting for the Department of Justice to press charges. But private companies do not actually have the right to coordinate takedowns of other companies.

Even if they're talking to each other about it, there's no racketeering or other criminal issue involved when this is the companies enforcing their established ToS. Getting together and saying "hey I think this latest incident really shows we should pay more attention to ToS enforcement" isn't racketeering.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#573

Post by igetspam » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:43 AM UTC

nmfisher wrote: post #555

BlanketLogic wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a non-sequitur right? Twitter , Google and Apple via their app stores, and now stripe are refusing to doing business not with a political party. They are refusing to doing business with people who have committed alleged(?) crimes. The _actions_ by a group of people are resulting in these bans. Not the group's affiliation. Am I missing something here?

My point was more that “just because losing access to Facebook/Twitter means nothing to you, doesn’t mean it means nothing to someone else”. But to more directly address your point, I ask you - what crime has Trump been convicted of?

The private entities are not the justice department. They are not the judiciary. They are not lawyers and they are not juries. They do not require criminal conviction before taking action. Your question is irellevant.

But to give you a partial answer anyway: Many criminals are never convicted. Many _known_ criminals are never convicted, due to lack of undeniable proof. Some criminals are convicted on lesser crimes, just to get them off the streets. There's plenty of evidence to support the position that Trump is a criminal. He may never be convicted but not because he's innocent.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#574

Post by davmar » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:43 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #541

mjevans wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make people take a test to drive. People should have to take a Civics based test to vote. If someone wants to vote but fails the civics test, they should then immediately qualify for a minimum living wage job to go back to public education and get paid for getting at least an 80% grade at whatever grade level they're working at (obviously with either enrollment at lower grade levels, classification as disability i…

We don't have tests because they were specifically used to disenfranchise large classes of people in the past.

precisely. literacy tests are banned by the civil rights act.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#575

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:44 AM UTC

joshuamorton wrote: post #434

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've gotten a distorted version of the story. The Minneapolis Third Precinct was abandoned at the time of burning only because police could no longer defend it against the rioters who were trying to break in and hurt them.

> against the rioters who were trying to break in and hurt them. This is, we'll go with dubious. Probably true at this point, but the protests had been going, relatively peacefully for close a day, and then less peacefully, with police having repeatedly tear gassed and fired rubber bullets at protestors who weren't doing anything violent, and didn't appear to have any violent intentions. Reports obviously differ, but…

I believe both of those things. I'm confused by the contrast you're drawing here, because the reason I believe them is the same in both cases: many participants made angry, public declarations that violence was needed and they'd like to see it happen. Questions of how many nonviolent people were involved, how long the violence took to kick off, or who made the first escalation don't strike me as very relevant.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#576

Post by ineedasername » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:45 AM UTC

spijdar wrote: post #568

ineedasername wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the definition of fascism [0] Although fascist parties and movements differed significantly from one another, they had many characteristics in common, including extreme militaristic nationalism, contempt for electoral democracy and political and cultural liberalism, a belief in natural social hierarchy and the rule of elites, and the desire to create a Volksgemeinschaft (German: “people’s community”), in w…

From the page you linked, There has been considerable disagreement among historians and political scientists about the nature of fascism. [...] For these and other reasons, there is no universally accepted definition of fascism. I recognize the definition I gave is different from how most people define "fascism", hence the disclaimer. I will however reject the idea there is actually a single precise meaning to "fasci…

I agree, there are different flavors and interpretations, which my article did mention. It gave what I'd label to common or core features of most fascist states. I'm sure there's infinite possibility for variation and different implementation details, including the means of controlling the economy and exercising power over others through economic means.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#577

Post by awb » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

mjevans wrote: post #501

baumandm wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that a large percentage of people across the political spectrum lack basic civics knowledge.

We make people take a test to drive. People should have to take a Civics based test to vote. If someone wants to vote but fails the civics test, they should then immediately qualify for a minimum living wage job to go back to public education and get paid for getting at least an 80% grade at whatever grade level they're working at (obviously with either enrollment at lower grade levels, classification as disability i…

> People should have to take a Civics based test to vote

The problem is what grade level?

1st grade: What country do you live in?

3rd grade: Name all 3 branches of government

6th grade: How is a bill made into a law?

9th grade: Who are your elected representatives and what are their positions on issues A, B & C?

...

PhD: Compare and contrast Hamilton and Jefferson's viewpoints on the Constitutional convention, banking and personal liberties and how they shaped and influenced US policy in the last 40 years (20 pages or less)

Countries have tried an aristocratic, ruling class and it doesn't work because it disenfranchises the masses and leads to a populist revolt.

These tests were also used in the US to disenfranchise minorities who couldn't read or afford to go to school.

Plus, I had a friend in college who was one of the 537 deciding votes in Broward county in 2000 who voted for Bush because "Gore was boring". He was smart and would have easily passed any civics test you gave him, but he voted based on personality rather than any specific issue.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#578

Post by Rapzid » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:50 AM UTC

thechao wrote: post #144

esoterica wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like the millionth time this has been posted on this website in the past few days, but the first amendment applies to the government, not private companies.

The first amendment applies to corporations when they use the state to enforce their speech over someone else's. The actual case history surrounding first amendment rights is way more complicated than you're implying. There are situations where the government can restrict your first amendment rights; there are situations where you can have your first amendment rights violated by a company — and seek restitution.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Can you give me an example of something that has happened recently in regards to QAnon where their first amendment rights may have been violated?

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#579

Post by hammock » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #541

mjevans wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We make people take a test to drive. People should have to take a Civics based test to vote. If someone wants to vote but fails the civics test, they should then immediately qualify for a minimum living wage job to go back to public education and get paid for getting at least an 80% grade at whatever grade level they're working at (obviously with either enrollment at lower grade levels, classification as disability i…

We don't have tests because they were specifically used to disenfranchise large classes of people in the past.

Ironic that you have to point this out to someone who is arguing that people lack civics knowledge..

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#580

Post by ineedasername » Mon, Jan 11, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #540

ineedasername wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They weren't criminal punishments. They were enforcements of ToS agreements. There's no need for an arrest, a conviction, or even a crime for them to ban users who violate ToS agreements. And, it being their own ToS, they don't need a court or any 3rd party to render judgment: they are the arbiter and interpreter of their own ToS and the enforcement actions taken.

Yeah yeah those ToS, the new founding document of the United States of America. One little warning from someone living in a real fascist state (Russia). It wasn't always a fascist state, but when it began to morph into one, censorship what what they started with. Of course, it was legal, because it was all private companies, rightfully executing their liberty to not show anyone they don't like... The rich irony, of c…

So the government should instead step in and decide what companies can and can't do with their own services & infrastructure? That sounds a lot more fascist to me than a company saying, up front, "Here's the rules for using our service. Violate them and you can take your business elsewhere."

And considering the ToS citations were I service of a potentially criminal act, fascism doesn't enter the picture: This is as much about these companies' own legal liability if they allow their platform to facilitate potential criminal activity even though it's against their own rules.