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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#571

Post by throwawaygh »

derangedHorse wrote: post #568
throwawaygh wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First Outcomes. So, either total comp or other relevant metric. Feel free to disagree, but I have tons of data so I’m not even going to debate. You seem to simply not understand the rest of the comment. The “or” is a branch with qualified professors of the practice on one side. It’s ok to not have any research experience as a professor, but then you better have a strong track record in industry. Having no relevant re…

"Feel free to disagree, but I have tons of data so I’m not even going to debate." Why say you have tons of data and not just post it? If there's tons of it, it should be easy to find and post one link showing direct correlations between undergrads in research earning in the 5-10 percentile. It's funny how you can say "One or the other usually suffices. Yes, usually. Spare me your anecdata about that one professor you…

> Why say you have tons of data and not just post it?

For the same reason you don't you dump your employer's IP whenever some internet rando asks for proof: it's not mine to give.

There are many paths to a happy early career. Getting involved in undergraduate research is one of them. There are other paths too.

tbh I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. You clearly have some sort of weird chip on your shoulder re: undergrad research. Sorry for your bad experience or whatever.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#572

Post by Justsignedup »

afiori wrote: post #85
Justsignedup wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low cost, available to everyone: the quality goes down as they need more capacity for less pay. High Quality, Available to everyone: Will cost a lot because we'd need a lot of high quality teachers, and attracting them will be expensive. Low Cost, High Quality: Only the best will get accepted, and the colleges will make their money in other ways using the work the students provide (like how medical school research de…

> Low cost, available to everyone: the quality goes down as they need more capacity for less pay. A partial solution to this is to simply shrink the spread of services the college/university offers. eg they could simply offer education and training.

We had this. This was vocational schools. They were fantastic for most of the US. Focused entirely on just the skills you need for specific fields.

Hair, Mechanic, Electrician, Plumber, etc. And they would be the perfect vessels for re-training when certain industries shut down.

Interestingly enough: They were cheap and universal (because they were cheap).

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#573

Post by mixmastamyk »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #149
georgeecollins wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across…

> Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Anecdote from a friend studying biochemistry in Milan, but mind-blowing. Apparently, he was the only one in his graduate class to know how to use a pipette and other basic lab equipment. Until that point, their training had been purely theoretical. There are a lot of other problems in a similar vein. But the quality of American high-access, high-quality higher ed…

Reminds me of the Feynman story where he goes to Brazil. May be a southern/latin Europe thing?

https://v.cx/2010/04/feynman-brazil-education

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#574

Post by mixmastamyk »

tptacek wrote: post #432
tobinfricke wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do, although they seem to obey a power law distribution in "prestige". California has 116 community colleges (serving 2 million students), 23 campuses of the California State University, and 9+ campuses of the University of California.

Community colleges and 4-year colleges aren't the same product. I'm asking why we don't simply have lots and lots more 4-year colleges, if the demand is so high that the prices can skyrocket the way they have.

Interesting. I'd guess it had partly to do with regulatory hurdles, accreditation and such. The other parts, acquiring the land, buildings, equipment, faculty are rather capital intensive. I suppose they could be rented at first.

Finally, that leaves the prestige angle.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#575

Post by mixmastamyk »

wespiser_2018 wrote: post #421
bawana wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. They ARE AWASH in income. They just figure out how to spend it fast. Fancy buildings, fancy retirement plans, outrageous administrative salaries.... For example the Chairman of UMASS Medical Center makes 2.3 million. The CEO of Harvard makes 9.25 million. How are these jobs an order of magnitude harder than the governor of Massachusetts. (salary 150K) Or harder than the US President (salary 400K). I ca…

Haha, I had lunch with Dr. Collins a few times in grad school at Umass: he's not a bad guy, just a medical executive that could go make that money elsewhere. He is pretty talented as well :)

I guess the bottom line is, does he deliver the value of that salary?

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#576

Post by [deleted] »

rlanday wrote: post #302

I don’t understand this argument here: > Up until 1993, the federal government merely guaranteed/backed student loans that private lenders gave. This meant that only in the case of someone defaulting on their loan would the government be on the hook, stepping in and paying the college what’s owed. > This amendment completely overhauled that system, making it so that for the vast majority of student loans, the federal…

[deleted]

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#577

Post by mixmastamyk »

chemag wrote: post #318
rlanday wrote: post #302

I don’t understand this argument here: > Up until 1993, the federal government merely guaranteed/backed student loans that private lenders gave. This meant that only in the case of someone defaulting on their loan would the government be on the hook, stepping in and paying the college what’s owed. > This amendment completely overhauled that system, making it so that for the vast majority of student loans, the federal…

I had the same thought. My hunch is that the difference is friction. In both cases, there's money going from the Feds to the University (100% probability) and money going from the student to the Feds ( >1993: no bank in the middle. University gets paid right away. Zero risk for them

Yes, presumably Uncle Sam cares less about making a sound loan in the first place. It is also able to create money out of thin air—in other words, (symbolically) infinite resources.

Getting paid upfront, instead of years later after tons of paperwork, can only accelerate the process.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#578

Post by Nimitz14 »

Beldin wrote: post #439
Nimitz14 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uk is the outlier here.

Not compared to northwestern europe. France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Germany are similar (not the same - similar). Scandinavia probably as well, but i don't have experience there.

In no serious field does one do a PhD in 3 years in Germany.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#579

Post by noetic_techy »

twblalock wrote: post #422
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

> By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. A lot of countries have been able to maintain high-quality, low-cost university systems. They all do it with a significant degree of government intervention. I can't think of a single one that has succeeded by letting the market solve this problem.

If you are talking about Europe, the catch is that they weed out those who shouldn't be there early. For example in Italy, everyone can go for the first year, but then you have to pass a continuation exam, that upwards of 50 to 70 % fail. Germany has a similar system with exams early in high school that separate what tier school you can go to (trade schools or universities). So sure, its "free/low cost" but and technically "universal", except for those who fail at the gate. Otherwise try your luck in the US where you can rack up massive debt to attend any for profit college with 90% acceptance rates and the peice of paper is accredited the same as any other college.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#580

Post by noetic_techy »

sudosysgen wrote: post #262
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

>Universality, High Quality, Low Cost, choose two Incorrect. Most of Europe as well as Canada spend less money, on average, per student as the US, have universal systems, and are (very) high quality.

If you are talking about Europe, the catch is that they weed out those who shouldn't be there early. For example in Italy, everyone can go for the first year, but then you have to pass a continuation exam, that upwards of 50 to 70 % fail. Germany has a similar system with exams early in high school that separate what tier school you can go to (trade schools or universities). As far as I know, once you take the test, your fate is sealed. So sure, its "free/low cost" but and technically "universal", except for those who fail at the gate. Otherwise try your luck in the US where you can rack up massive debt to attend any for profit college with 90% acceptance rates and the piece of paper is accredited the same as any other college.
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