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Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

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Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#571

Post by evgen »

WC3w6pXxgGd wrote: post #564
neuroanalysis wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profitability should have no bearing on whether drivers are classified as employees or contractors. If these companies can’t turn a profit while complying with the law then they don’t have a viable business model. That is entirely their problem. Furthermore, the assumptions you make regarding future hiring practices are unfounded. Nothing stipulates that resumes or interviews, let alone in person, would be required t…

> If these companies can’t turn a profit while complying with the law then they don’t have a viable business model Are you seriously telling me that if people don't interact freely in the way bureaucrats want them to interact, then those people should, by law, not be allowed to interact? Big Brother knows best, huh.

Welcome to what we call “society”, and yes, we get to set the rules. Don’t like it? Well, I think the door is over there; feel free to use it.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#572

Post by fastball »

crooked-v wrote: post #492
fastball wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what changes (in your opinion) would allow Uber to reasonably classify drivers as contractors?

There's no "opinion" about it. There are fairly clear-cut rules that are applied under California law: https://www.californiaemploymentlawreport.com/2019/03/unders...

Yes, and from my reading, Uber cannot possibly change anything without literally becoming an entirely different company with different business model in order for their drivers to be classified as contractors.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#573

Post by seankimdesign »

jojobas wrote: post #351
abvdasker wrote: post #320

The consequences of this ruling are probably not going to be known for a while. This is certainly bad for Uber & Lyft insofar as it will greatly increase their operating costs. The question is what effect the ruling will have on drivers. Uber is not a profitable company with fat margins like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple or Netflix. I don't see any way for Uber to absorb the increased costs that come with full empl…

>drivers will no longer be able to choose when they work Why? Uber is still free to let them choose if they choose so. >Going forward people who want to drive for Uber will have to interview like any other job Why? Uber would be free to hire without interview. >this will bring a big improvement in quality of life That's the point. >The rest will be out of a job It was deemed that this kind of a job is not worth havin…

What a tasteless and tortured analogy. I'm sure the slaves hated being freed as much as my brother will be when they tell him that he needs to drive X minimum hours a week to keep his employment status with Uber/Lyft. More realistically, there probably won't be an Uber/Lyft left to drive for if this ruling sticks. God knows they're already bleeding funds as we speak. There's no way they'll stay afloat.

No matter how you want to spin this, it's not going to be a victory for the majority of the drivers. Let us, in our high and mighty chair, obliterate a burgeoning industry filled with people voluntarily making money on their own time. Let the taxi medallions flow back in its stead. Problem solved - slavery is no more.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#574

Post by whiddershins »

If you think about this dispassionately, the biggest likely effect of implementing this is as follows:

Uber rides become more expensive.

That money largely will go to the government in the form of various payroll taxes.

No one will remember this in a couple of years.

Because of the forgetting, we will in the future be skeptical that labor compliance was so important to the price. The idea that gig workers could have ever existed without all this compliance will seem alien and barbaric.

If anyone suggests removing all this compliance, they will be called a free market purist.

It’s odd, because I think most people actually think what is going on with gig workers right now isn’t horrible oppression, but rather adults agreeing to working conditions and having a ton of freedom.

I don’t think we will see it that way in the future. And I don’t think we will ever be able to deregulate this after the fact.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#575

Post by seankimdesign »

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #559
blisterpeanuts wrote: post #395

The judge does not understand what a "gig" is. Uber drivers can choose to drive one, twelve, or zero hours in any given day. They can suddenly stop working by simply not accepting any more ride requests. It's the ultimate remote, self-directed, self-managed job. An employee can't make such decisions; they do as they are told or they are fired. Uber drivers are private, self-owned businesses that rent out their time a…

The judge certainly does understand what is going here. Secure employment is being replaced with "gigs" to the point where a huge chunk of the country has no stable income and is one week away from homelessness.

I guess that's one theory: Uber, purely by existing, somehow managed to significantly reduce the number of secure employment opportunities available in the US and lured happily employed people onto a life that's inches away from homelessness. In the same vein, if we were to shut down Uber right now and went back to the taxi model we should be able to salvage our economy.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#576

Post by WanderPanda »

whiddershins wrote: post #574

If you think about this dispassionately, the biggest likely effect of implementing this is as follows: Uber rides become more expensive. That money largely will go to the government in the form of various payroll taxes. No one will remember this in a couple of years. Because of the forgetting, we will in the future be skeptical that labor compliance was so important to the price. The idea that gig workers could have…

I mostly agree, but shouldn't the competition between states in the US be able to lead to the best solution? Maybe that is overriden by the large variance in the bag of different things (regulations etc.) one gets from being in one particular state vs another. This does not play well with the low dimensional action space of moving from one to another state.

Maybe it is time to think about "virtual" citizenship so there is competition between states on may distinct levels

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#577

Post by dustinmoris »

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah

This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates.

If you are truly self employed then you have a skill which you can market, you can charge fees which allows one to put money aside for things like unpaid leave or sick days.

If you are truly self employed then part of your job is building customer relationship, building up recurring customers, increasing your business through marketing, word of mouth, etc.

You actually have to do entrepreneurial shit.

Uber drivers are NONE of this.

They clock into an app which belongs to someone else and they have no share in. They can't hand out business cards to customers or market their services on a board somewhere. They sit and wait until their master (Uber/Lyft) assigns a ride to them. Then they have merely the chance to accept/decline it. They can't even negotiate their own fees. That itself is fucked up. It's complete nonsense in extremely disingenuous by anyone here to suggest that an Uber driver is a self employed contractor and that this is good for them. They get paid shit and can't save up like a real self employed person, because they also have no say in the ride prices.

Fuck the gig economy. All gig workers are slaves and we should treat each other with more dignity and upgrade them to employees. It's our bloody duty as a decent human being.

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#578

Post by neetrain »

dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

Meanwhile in Japan, We never get sick pay (treated as leave pay) nor usually leave pay even when employed...

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#579

Post by dustinmoris »

neetrain wrote: post #578
dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

Meanwhile in Japan, We never get sick pay (treated as leave pay) nor usually leave pay even when employed...

Meanwhile Japan is also the only country which has an actual word in the dictionary to describe "Death through overwork".

It's called Karoshi.

No modern society should have such a common problem that you have to invent a specific word for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karoshi

Re: Uber and Lyft ordered by California judge to classify drivers as employees

#580

Post by miganga »

neetrain wrote: post #578
dustinmoris wrote: post #577

Lots of HN comments are here like "I know people who prefer to be contractors", "My sister's neighbours little brother actually doesn't want to be treated with respect by Uber", blah This is utter nonsense. Being a contractor means being self employed. You don't get paid leave or sick pay. It's a risk taking and doesn't make any sense in the gig economy where the wages are close to minimum rates. If you are truly sel…

Meanwhile in Japan, We never get sick pay (treated as leave pay) nor usually leave pay even when employed...

That's basically abuse.
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