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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#571
post #527
post #268

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I generally lose respect for people who think caps-lock is an acceptable way to type messages to others. You should try looking for more descriptive words to get your point across.

There's no bold option here - what is your solution for emphasis?

As I said: more descriptive words.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#572
post #530

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I reject the dichotomy. We can acknowledge that the situation is very bad without deciding that it's OK to scream at people.

You're right, caps lock is the real enemy. How could I have been so wrong? Let's ignore everything because of that. Bars should open, as long as everyone whispers we're fine. Article below is the result of the question you asked - still don't think you're getting it. Thousands will die specifically because of this decision. https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrasternlicht/2020/05/14/... Also, it's "ok", "OK" makes it…

You don't understand.... the quality of conversation goes down dramatically with caps-lock and erratic speech style. And that makes the rest of us lose interest, and respect.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#573
post #254

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Similar in what ways? Aus is an island country whose societal composition and Constitutional rights are nothing like ours. I wouldn't say they're very similar at all.

I'd say they are pretty similar in most respects. But geography is a big difference that is relevant to Covid-19. Autrstial probably didn't have community spread of covid until Late Feb. But America had community spread in at least mid Jan--and probably earlier. But Australia locked down essentially when America did. If they can eradicate the disease, that's a huge win, but if they can't they are just delaying what h…

Aus is an island. The US boarders two countries and has an illegal smuggling problem. The size-to-population isn't even remotely similar, and neither are the rights allowed to the citizens.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#574
post #261
post #230

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That's a unanimous opinion? You're speaking for all 66M of your citizens? >Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities This would be handled by our 10th amendment rights. So I'm looking for a source of what rights Brits have and it's sort of difficult to understand... This [0] outlines several dates of ratification but I'm not really sure which curr…

>That's a unanimous opinion? As I pointed out in my post, we are a democracy. Off the top of my head, I'm not familiar with any forms of government that require unanimity. Do you really think that's a necessary requirement? >So I'm looking for a source of what rights Brits have and it's sort of difficult to understand... Rich coming from someone in a country that has blatant civil forfeiture, practices extraordinary…

>Theory is great, but practical results matter.

True that! Thankfully our Supreme Court frequently sides with the people and their rights against the government.

You wanna know something that I think a lot of people don't really understand about America........ we're a really young country. One of the youngest. And one of the best! We haven't had much time to settle into our new diggs, ever since we fought your terrible government- and won. Our country is still settling while many other first-world countries, such as Britain, have been settled for centuries. You may not understand this but our government isn't federal top-down. The organization isn't Feds > State > Local > People. That's not how rights work in America (see A10.)

>In practical terms I genuinely feel vastly more confident in my liberty, safety and freedom over here than in the US.

I get the feeling you don't excersize contentious liberties. In which case, you're not the right person to ask if they feel confident in their liberty.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#575
post #449

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Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.

HN should require a reply in order to downvote, and downvoting should cause multiple lost points for the down-voter....and maybe down-votes should be publicly visible. I come here primarily to read discussion and to provide my unfiltered critical thought....but what I'm seeing recently is petty downvoting with little discussion or replies.

We're not going to do that because it would lead to an explosion of bickering, nitpicking, and other low-value comments. You can't force people to do things like give good reasons.

The downvote system has its disadvantages to be sure, but HN would be far, far worse off without it. Anyone who thinks otherwise is underestimating the need for anti-dreck measures on the internet.

The key word in what you wrote is 'seeing'. You notice the cases you dislike, but the other ones in some sense go unseen: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.... In other words you count the cost of the system but not its benefits. I don't mean you personally! we all do this. It's a cognitive bias that strongly (I mean extremely strongly) affects people's perceptions of HN.

In reality, the ability of this site to support your intention ("I come here primarily to read discussion and to provide my unfiltered critical thought") depends utterly on the downvotes, just as the body depends on its white blood cells.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#576

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Is this an argument for lack of consumer demand? Keeping things shut down isn't going to help these people get back to work.

I think this is an argument for lack of money to be spent since a hefty portion of people have lost their jobs and paychecks don't happen instantaneously and unpaid bills probably come first.

Sure, but it's circular logic to suggest that there's no need to rush reopening since demand will be low anyway... (As others have said)

When you need those jobs created by reopening to get people back to work and closer to the point of having disposable income again.

This isn't pure chicken & egg, since consumer debt is tightening up while business debt is getting cheaper. Plus the only way we're going to alleviate fear is by opening and seeing what happens.

Even testing vaccines will require that leap of faith at some point. After all, what good would a clinical trial be if the patient quarantined during it?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#577

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People still want to live in those locations, evidenced by the fact that there are still people living there and getting along ok. Maybe you're a doctor and want to work at one of the two best hospitals on the planet, then you'd move to Cleveland, for example. Maybe you want to go to the #1 CS program on the planet, so you go to CMU. And who knows. Maybe now with more companies going remote or encouraging more remote…

Honestly, given this and your other replies, it just seems you have an axe to grind, because you're essentially agreeing with my point: none of the regulators, wall-street investors, or people clamoring for the economy to reopen cared when the manufacturing industries collapsed here. And now all of a sudden, they care about people working? They didn't back then. They do now because THEIR pocket books are hurting. I'm…

My axe to grind is with people calling other parts of the country 'cesspools'. It's a terrible mentality to have, and untrue. I'll also add that even though lots of people have left some of these cities, they're still getting along just fine.

You don't have to be the size of Chicago to be successful.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#578

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No. New York did not run out of hospital capacity. The goal is to approach but not exceed hospital capacity.

I don't know what you're responding to. I said nothing about hospital capacity.

He is responding to your comment about the New York scenario. The original justification for the shutdown was that we would run out of hospital capacity.

New York always had ample capacity in hospitals, and the USNS comfort and Javits center hospital were almost empty. Governor projected a lack of capacity which certainly caused fear, but it’s a very different thing.

In terms on NYC deaths there has been many stories of incompetence and mismanagement. Almost all that died had other serious health conditions, so it’s a question if lack of proper care for a non covid preexisting condition or they not seeking care out of fear is often the true cause of death.

Normally death cause is well investigated. However, CDC issued highly unusual guidelines that said doctors should classify all deaths as covid if they have been diagnosed to have covid instead of doing doing the normal extensive look into each case. This may mask people dying from other serious health conditions due to lockdown.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

40% of households making under 40k a year have had a job loss since March

Is this an argument for lack of consumer demand? Keeping things shut down isn't going to help these people get back to work.

Here’s one example. Restaurants will likely be operating at 50% capacity or below for the foreseeable future. Their business model does not work at 50% capacity. Many, many jobs are not coming back.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#580
post #545

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> Has anyone taken these laws to the Supreme Court? No, but that's because we live in a legal regime where the government assumes the power to punish people with jail time even when no actual harm is caused, based on a government official's judgment of "possible harm". But the fact that we live in such a regime does not make it right. In a sane legal regime, what would happen if you were driving drunk, but had not ca…

And I can shoot into an apartment as long as I don’t hit anyone. Just pay for the property damage — if any? What if I kidnap a sleeping baby, but they catch me before the baby awakens or the parents find out. No harm, no foul?

> I can shoot into an apartment as long as I don’t hit anyone. Just pay for the property damage — if any?

The "as long as you don't hit anyone" part is going to be hard to guarantee, particularly if this is not just a one-shot event but a repetitive pattern of behavior.

Also, the fact that, if you are lucky enough not to hit anyone, and only cause property damage, and agree to pay for it, the government can't send you to jail in a sane society, does not mean the apartment owner can't take other actions. As, for example, telling everybody they know about your reckless behavior. In a sane society, people who act recklessly like this quickly find that they can't survive because no one will associate with them due to their widespread reputation for reckless behavior.

Unfortunately, we don't live in a sane society.

> What if I kidnap a sleeping baby, but they catch me before the baby awakens or the parents find out. No harm, no foul?

No, because kidnapping the baby is a crime because the baby is not yours, not because some government official thought that doing so "might harm" the baby. I thought we weren't discussing that category of crimes, but only the category where the government's justification for calling it a crime is that it "might harm" someone, even if there is no actual harm.

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