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Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

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Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#571

Post by foogazi »

contingencies wrote: post #274

We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because,…

He who does not work, neither shall he eat. - Paul the Apostle

... via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/He_who_does_not_work,_neither_...

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#572

Post by AdrianB1 »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #538
AdrianB1 wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democracy does not exclude coercion, it's just coercion of the minority by the majority. Tell me you have the option not to pay any taxes ... can you? I grew up and lived in a Communist country, such a speech is not touching me for a very long time. Sorry for the insensitivity to your bubble.

I do have the option to not pay taxes - I just have to cease to use any of the things that are provided with tax money. Including a passport. What does you growing up in a communist regime have to do with any of what I'm saying? Are there even taxes in communist systems? Seriously, how do you pay for policemen without taxes? And without policemen, who protects your property from theft? How do you imagine a capitalist…

Yes, taxes are paid in communist countries.

In the discussion about taxes vs. compassion, paying for policemen has more options between communism and complete radical free market anarchy. But it is not the subject of the discussion, policemen don't work for compassion, they don't buy food with it and don't pay the bills with it.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#573

Post by rayiner »

lwneal wrote: post #431
rayiner wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not talking about service jobs. This thread is about low wage workers. > I’m actually referring to mostly white collar ones, a lot of administration jobs, finance, government, etc Why, because you don’t understand what they do? Imagine explaining to those people that Google has “engineers” who just maintain the source repository. I bet they’d think it was a “bullshit job.”

The book "Bullshit Jobs" by David Graeber defines five types of jobs, two of which are "goons" and "box tickers". Goons include hired people who lobby aggressively on behalf of their employer: lobbyists, corporate lawyers, PR specialists. Box tickers are those who use paperwork and process to appear to be busy, even though the real useful work would continue without their intervention. It's no secret that the top-5 t…

David Graeber is an anthropologist. He apparently did a PhD thesis on "magic, slavery, and politics." What qualifies him to talk about the economy and the function of various jobs? I mean, hell, he's an anthropology professor declaring other jobs to be "bullshit." (But I won't go so far as to say "anthropology professor" is a bullshit job, because I'm self aware enough to realize that I probably just don't understand what economic function they perform.)

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#574

Post by foogazi »

hacknat wrote: post #465
contingencies wrote: post #274

We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because,…

Also it is a total lie and a very narrow definition of utility. Arguably, we’ve actually under priced some of the most important labor in our society (caregivers, teachers, social workers, etc), and over priced some of the dumbest (sorry, but if Uber disappeared tomorrow, society would be moderately inconvenienced, but little else). Finally, nothing in evolutionary biology teaches us that human beings ought to work.…

> we’ve actually under priced some of the most important labor in our society (caregivers, teachers, social workers, etc),

Who is we? Who sets the price?

People obviously don’t see more value in teachers or caregivers, price should not be mandated by law

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#575

Post by dnissley »

pkaye wrote: post #545
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s the solution? Don’t have children?

The government would have to subsidize it as a cost of keeping society functioning.

Would that not just directly lead to it swallowing an amount of federal tax revenue proportional to other services that are subsidized? E.g. healthcare/education? And then proceed to munch on GDP bit by bit?

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#576

Post by rayiner »

enraged_camel wrote: post #454
rayiner wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not talking about service jobs. This thread is about low wage workers. > I’m actually referring to mostly white collar ones, a lot of administration jobs, finance, government, etc Why, because you don’t understand what they do? Imagine explaining to those people that Google has “engineers” who just maintain the source repository. I bet they’d think it was a “bullshit job.”

>>Why, because you don’t understand what they do? I was a business analyst at my previous job. My core function was to gain a deep understanding of what the various people in an organization did, where the input for their work came from and where the output went, and why. Here's an example that actually embodies an extremely common scenario: I worked with a customer whose clients filled out and submitted online forms…

You're describing a different thing. The economy undoubtedly has many jobs that are, in certain specific instances, unnecessary. That's just an uninteresting observation that the economy isn't perfectly efficient. That's different than the concept of "bullshit job," which is more about jobs that are *categorically unnecessary," because, for example, they could be automated away.

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#577

Post by foogazi »

> Federal, state, and local governments can take a number of steps to improve workers’ economic security.

Amazed how all these articles gloss over or totally ignore what workers themselves can do to better their situation

> These statistics tell an important story: Millions of hardworking American adults struggle to eke out a living and support their families on very low wages.

>What should be done?

By who?

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#579

Post by AnimalMuppet »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #87

Labor market conditions are not acts of God, nor inevitable. They are shaped by policies, investments, and institutions. This is a point I keep trying to make about UBI and seemingly utterly failing. It isn't "inevitable" that automation will lead to high rates of chronic unemployment. I've been quiet of late on HN. I often am around Christmas time, but I also wonder if I'm just fed up with feeling like it's complete…

For those as ignorant as I was five minutes ago: "SRO" = "Single Room Occupancy".

Re: Low unemployment isn’t worth much if the jobs barely pay

#580

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

conanbatt wrote: post #534
contingencies wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical is a special market due to emotional heartstrings. At a certain point, people will pay anything when death or health are involved. At a political / social impact / behavioral hacking level, there's probably an argument to make near human grade medical services for domestic pets free, as it would likely assist with the reduction in human population growth (aside from companionship, etc.). I am consistently ama…

> Medical is a special market due to emotional heartstrings. At a certain point, people will pay anything when death or health is involved. This is a common misconception of what healthcare services are. People pay more for unsafer cars every day or decide to travel by plane that carries life&death risks for the pleasures of tourism. Life is a currency we pay with anything, from eating garbage to smoking and drinking…

Meh, I trust pilots to handle planes well.

That being said, I don't like commuting by bike because of all the dorks going 50-60mph in a 35mph area. Not worth it. Also makes you think twice before slamming the accelerator when I myself drive. Something like every 10mph faster you go equates to like 50% higher risk of fatality- and when your knees and back are the crumple zones, no thank you!

Risks are an inherent part of life. I've dealt with a popped lung before- likely because of athletic activities- and I wouldn't not do those because I might get hurt. If you don't take risks, are you really alive?

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