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France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

reuters.com

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Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#571

Post by JAlexoid »

TylerE wrote: post #506
somecontext wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some context in case anyone is curious: putting together information from various websites suggests that the following is the oldest plane in commercial service today. https://m.planespotters.net/airframe/Boeing/737/5Y-CGV-Zone-... It is a Boeing 737-200 and it has been in service for 43.7 years.

Hardly. There are still DC-3's in commercial operation, and production of those ended in 1942. http://www.buffaloairways.com/ is one operator.

They don't seem to be a scheduled service operator. They look like a charter airline.

Common definition of a "commercial operation" for airlines is scheduled operation, not charters.

So... That boeing just may be the oldest flying airliner on scheduled routes.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#572

Post by JAlexoid »

TylerE wrote: post #553
goatinaboat wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A C130 should be a viable modern alternative for those use cases, if economic

A fully loaded DC-3 can takeoff in just over 2000ft. A C-130 needs almost 4000ft.

There are no small planes that can replace DC-3. C-130 is massive!

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#573

Post by JAlexoid »

zrobotics wrote: post #510
dewey wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take-off and landing account for a lot more pollution than a flight in cruising altitude on long trips. That's why we usually talk about the problematic domestic flights where trains are an alternative. There's not really a good alternative for long haul flights. Flights within Europe are not that heavily taxed, otherwise I wouldn't be able to fly Berlin - Brussels for 9 Euros.

Wait, Berlin to Brussels for €9? Good lord, that is far too cheap. For example, the distance is roughly equivalent to Denver-Albuquerque. Kayak's cheapest quote is $119 one way, scheduled 1 month in advance. I knew flights in Europe were cheaper, but how is it possible to operate profitably at that price? Kayak shows $23 for Ryanair Berlin-Brussels. For comparison, I had a vehicle breakdown and needed to take an (awf…

That's not exactly correct. Ryanair expect to make about $50 per passenger one way.

Though even at profitability, the flights in EU are typically cheaper.

Flights in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus are very expensive... They are in Europe as well.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#574

Post by JAlexoid »

rsj_hn wrote: post #447
dewey wrote: post #167

Finally. It's really frustrating to see how heavily subsidized airlines, plane fuel and airports are and how big of a tax breaks they get when they come to a city. At the same time people are shamed for buying salad in a plastic bag when the big lever is somewhere completely different. Had the same thought yesterday when I saw: https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1148317244893597696

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

Actually. Taxes aren't even close to being the highest bit. The parts that are taxes are:

  APHIS User Fee USD 3.96
  Immigration User Fee USD 7.00
  Customs User Fee USD 5.77
  United States International Departure Tax USD 18.60
  United States International Arrival Tax USD 18.60
  Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee USD 5.60
  Air Transport Tax USD 46.58
  German Aviation Security Charge  19.15
The majority of the charges are airport services. But they typically just put everything with Taxes, so you think it's taxes.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#575

Post by JAlexoid »

egl2019 wrote: post #519
zrobotics wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, Berlin to Brussels for €9? Good lord, that is far too cheap. For example, the distance is roughly equivalent to Denver-Albuquerque. Kayak's cheapest quote is $119 one way, scheduled 1 month in advance. I knew flights in Europe were cheaper, but how is it possible to operate profitably at that price? Kayak shows $23 for Ryanair Berlin-Brussels. For comparison, I had a vehicle breakdown and needed to take an (awf…

"How is it possible to operate profitably at that price?" It isn't: Air Berlin, Monarch, Primera, Small Planet, Azur, Cobalt, VLM, PrivatAir, Icelandic carrier WOW.

They were run like traditional airlines, but traditional airlines can offset short haul losses with long haul profitability.

Primera and WOW were in trouble because they couldn't offset losses on their long-haul with anything.

I mean... I will not consider lower confort on transatlantic route, while sub 3 hour flights Ryanair is actually great.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#576

Post by JAlexoid »

snappieT wrote: post #556
rsj_hn wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the huge taxes are generally for international flights, and I think part of the reason is that, as you say, there aren't a lot of options for those flights so they have a captive market and are thus better able to bear those taxes. If you start with punitive taxes on domestic flights in the EU, it will disproportionately hit the airline industry there. As with many things, the game with taxes is how to make the…

This doesn't explain why Norwegian are above to fly transatlantic for as low as $104 one-way (PVD-DUB on Feb 5th). I know that Providence airport likely charges lower fees, but it demonstrates how little "tax" is being paid on international flights.

Norwegian has been hemorrhaging money recently, because they can't compete with traditional airlines.

I used to be a great proponent of Norwegian... but now... They cost as much, with less flexibility.

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#577

Post by JAlexoid »

ian0 wrote: post #514
rsj_hn wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International Air Travel is one of the most heavily taxed, if not the most heavily taxed, activity. It's not unusual for the taxes to exceed the ticket price. Here I just looked on kayak for a flight from SFO to Berlin. Here is the price breakdown: Ticket price USD 465.00 Taxes, Fees and charges USD 540.52 --------- International/Domestic Surcharge USD 350.00 APHIS User Fee USD 3.96 Immigration User Fee USD 7.00 Cust…

$7 / passenger for Immigration, $5 for customs! Thats insane revenue, you would expect at least a good service from it.

Do you think that US government is efficient?

Re: France to tax flights from its airports, airline shares fall

#578

Post by snappieT »

JAlexoid wrote: post #576
snappieT wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't explain why Norwegian are above to fly transatlantic for as low as $104 one-way (PVD-DUB on Feb 5th). I know that Providence airport likely charges lower fees, but it demonstrates how little "tax" is being paid on international flights.

Norwegian has been hemorrhaging money recently, because they can't compete with traditional airlines. I used to be a great proponent of Norwegian... but now... They cost as much, with less flexibility.

My example literally demonstrates just how cheap they can be???
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