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Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

reuters.com

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Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#571
post #535

People are bringing in the supply-demand curve from their school economy classes. The problem is it doesn't work that way with housing. There is zero incentive to build affordable housing when you can build a luxury house. On the contrary, landlords in Berlin "renovate" all the time, to make normal apartments into luxury ones. So without regulation, the supply for affordable housing is diminishing. To increase the su…

Luxury housing, too, does create supply. Prohibiting the construction of luxury apartments will just end with rich people paying luxury money for standard apartments thus raising prices and people with less financial means will be priced out.

Or will just move to a city that is willing to provide them living conditions they want (Munich, Hamburg, whatever).

Also when we consider new houses, luxury house creates less supply than a normal one by having fewer apartments.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#572
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It "works" (in that it doesn't cause problems like rationing by other means like queueing, under the table payments, subletting, or any one of the myriad other problems rent control produces) because it actually does nothing - it results in rents which are equal to what the open market price would have been. Ultimately, if you want to reduce rents AND have a functioning market, you have two options (or a combination…

It results in rents which are equal to what the open market price would have been. This is a pretty strong claim to make. Can you provide data to substantiate?

The German Institute for Economic Research (DIW)'s study from June 2016 came to this conclusion:

https://www.diw.de/de/diw_01.c.535261.de/themen_nachrichten/...

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It "works" (in that it doesn't cause problems like rationing by other means like queueing, under the table payments, subletting, or any one of the myriad other problems rent control produces) because it actually does nothing - it results in rents which are equal to what the open market price would have been. Ultimately, if you want to reduce rents AND have a functioning market, you have two options (or a combination…

Wait is subletting an actual problem in itself? Am I missing something? I know if done in excess it could lead to fire code violations, landlords dislike not getting an increased share/concerns about increased maintenance, and would turn controlled rent holders into beneficiaries of a free cash stream over others not privledged but those are either technically separate issues or already in place really for the last o…

In this context (ie subletting against the terms of the agreement), I'd say it's a direct interference with the property rights of the owner, which to me is a problem, although I accept others might take a different view on that. But it also often comes with all the usual issues with gray markets - subtenants might in practice have very few enforceable rights, tax evasion can be common, etc etc.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are necessarily connected. Supply and demand is connected. If rents are frozen, that lowers housing liquidity (because people won’t move if their rent stays “affordable,”) which reduces supply and necessarily creates a shortage. It lowers mobility as well since there is a shortage of available housing which leads to inefficiency— if someone moves to another job in another part of the city, that person would be l…

I agree with some of your points but I think you're misguided on a couple. >because people won’t move if their rent stays “affordable,” This is the issue rent control is trying to solve. There will always be rich people that can afford to live in the city, and they basically raise the bar on what developers and landlords think people can afford. They stay comfy while the rest basically pour all their paycheck into re…

> This is the issue rent control is trying to solve.

I don't think you fully understand the issue. You focus on one specific case: richer renters displacing poorer renters because they're willing to pay more. But there is so much more to the housing market, and to people moving from one home to another than that.

Maybe I got children, and I want a bigger apartment. Maybe my children moved out, and I now want a smaller one. Maybe I changed jobs, and I want to move to a different part of the city closer to work. Maybe I want to move to a different city where I got offered a job. And so on.

In a "normal" housing market, you can do all of these things. I can get an apartment in any part of the city within a week, because people move around all the time and leave empty apartments. I don't have to be richer than them, I will pay the same price they used to pay. In a normal housing market, people move around, which means other people can also move around. In a housing market that gives special privileges to current renters, people get "entrenched" in their apartment and don't want to leave for any reason. So these apartments never appear on the market.

In my city, there are rent controls for certain apartments (fortunately very small percentage). I know a few people who live in such apartments, and most of them never intend to move for any reason (unless the rent controls are revoked, which might happen). It is not because they consider this apartment the best possible place for them to be. It's because they don't want to lose their privileges. A renter in a rent-controlled home has an extremely strong artificial incentive to stay exactly where they are. This is inefficient, because as a result, people can't move around.

Now you do have a point, in the sense that it might cause people with lower incomes to be "pushed out". I am not familiar with Berlin, I know my city is fully mixed usage and there is not some huge dropoff in rent as you move away from the center (in fact, some parts further away are more expensive than some nearer). Also jobs are not concentrated in the center, so it's not like most people are commuting into the city center every day. There is pretty much everything everywhere.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe if your only hobbies are nightclubs and getting mugged. As someone living in and enjoying rural live with lots of space and quiet I really understand your point, but slightly belittling and disregarding comments like these don't help your argument. It's not that hard to see the attraction of big cities as long as you can imagine that someone might have different interests than you. Of course, this applies to…

I don't think most people would choose not to own a car if there wasn't a concern of money involved. Car ownership can certainly be less economical than sticking to transit/biking in some areas, but I think most people in such situations would still hypothetically prefer having the option of driving available.

I don't own a car, nor do I ever intend to do so. Cars are expensive, dangerous and overall something I've never needed to get around.

This means almost all of the rural areas in America are off-limits for me, because not only is the public transportation infrastructure abysmal but it also heavily restricts my options if I wanted to get food, travel or do any form of recreation.

Whenever people bring up living in areas far outside of the city, they never factor in car ownership as part of the equation because they assume that's just a given.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#576
post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify what problem you are trying to solve with this proposal? No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. You rent if you believe it's in your interest to rent, instead of buy. Why stop two consenting people from entering into rental agreements, both of whom believe it's in their interest? Some people prefer to rent: they don't want to be obligated to live somewhere for 10 to 30 years. They p…

No one is obligated to rent a property from someone else. That's a pretty weird statement to make. Do you really believe that everyone (or even a majority) of people who currently rent are in a position to buy a place to live if they wanted to?

One of the key benefits of renting, that I outlined in my comment above, is that people can typically rent properties that they could not afford to buy. So yes I agree that people could not necessarily afford to buy the same quality and location of property that they might rent. This is a benefit.

Cities have high property prices because they are extremely desirable. Lots of people would like to live there, but there is limited land, and not everyone can afford to live there. There must be a way of determining who has the right to occupy the scarce resource that is land, and the market is the solution to that problem in most countries.

Although not everyone might be able to afford to buy property in the most desirable cities on earth, such as Berlin, most people can certainly afford to buy property somewhere else. For example, a house that costs $1 million in San Francisco might cost $20k-$50k in Detroit. The further you move away from cities, the cheaper property gets.

I think it is reasonable that not everyone can afford to buy property in literally the most desirable, high-demand places in the world, like Berlin or London. People can still afford to buy property elsewhere.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High prices are exactly how the free market attracts additional resources to solve capacity problems. Legislative efforts to limit prices pretty much guarantees that additional capacity will not be forthcoming and that shortages and high prices will continue.

That's how you get an overbuilt construction industry and (even more) unemployed construction workers during the next recession. The "free" market is adequate for allocating resources to consumer goods but not for allocating them to entire industries.

I gather you are asserting that real estate developers are incapable of determining when they are too late to the party and are constructing extra space that will never be occupied.

Presumably you also believe that government bureaucrats are somehow better able to ascertain exactly when to stop issuing building permits so as to avoid "overbuilt" construction. And of course they will know when to resume issuing building permits also to ensure there are no shortages.

How is it that these government bureaucrats are better able to predict demand and arrange for supply than market mechanisms and the free economic choices of individuals?

You are making an argument for a planned economy over a free market, for limiting the freedom of individuals to invest as they see fit with their own resources in favor of giving power to government employees to block or to subsidize their favored economic activity.

The historical track record for central planning is overwhelmingly negative. I don't understand why people continue to advocate for it.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a problem that is naturally solved by market forces, supply and demand. If some job is sufficiently valued in a city, then businesses and government will pay whatever wage is necessary to hire people to perform that job. If people who are doing some job cannot afford to live in a city, then they will move away or find a different job. This will cause a shortage of people performing the job. If there i…

What are you talking about? Nurses, teachers and public sector workers all critical for the functioning of cities are claiming welfare. Some nurses in the NHS are eating patients' left-over food. The logic of the market is to drive wages to the bottom and replace workers when they break. It leads to the destruction of service quality, social cohesion and increased deaths in our hospitals. Please stay off the Ayn Rand…

> Nurses, teachers and public sector workers all critical for the functioning of cities

Sure. As a voter, if my region was experiencing a shortage of public sector workers, and that shortage was affecting my quality of life, or the life of people that I care about, then I would certainly be willing to vote in favor of a pay raise.

> The logic of the market is to drive wages to the bottom and replace workers when they break.

No, this is not true. Markets exhibit emergent behavior. They don't have any logic per se, although we can reason about how we expect them to behave. If markets have any "logic", then their logic is to reach an equilibrium price.

This does not necessarily mean that wages are driven to the bottom. What happens to wages is a function of supply and demand. If very few people are capable of performing a job in some area, and that job is in high demand, then the result of supply/demand dynamics will be a very high wage. On the other hand, if lots of people are capable of performing a job, and/or the job is in low demand, then the result might be a low wage.

It is certainly the case that everyone wants to pay the lowest price that they can for acceptable quality goods and services. Who wants to pay more at the grocery store, or the dentist, or the doctor's office? The cost of labor is a dominant cost in the price of all goods and services that we consume. The fact that automation is replacing labor in many industries has directly lead to the phenomenally low prices for many goods in the modern world.

For example, before the Industrial Revolution, clothing was exceptionally expensive. Clothing required a massive amount of human labor, and so a single shirt might have cost the equivalent of $3,500 modern dollars. As a result of this, poor people could afford very little clothing - resulting the trope of peasants wearing rags to tatters. Most of our fabrics and clothing are produced by machines now, and so the cost of clothing has come down by orders of magnitude. The result is now that even fairly poor people across the globe can afford adequate clothing.

https://www.sleuthsayers.org/2013/06/the-3500-shirt-history-...

Automation in most cases results in an increase of quality, not a reduction in quality. For another perspective on this, examine how the cost of lighting has decreased over time: https://ourworldindata.org/light#price-of-light-over-the-lon...

It is a good thing for everyone that the costs of goods and services comes down over time (or equivalently: the quality of goods and services increases while the price remains steady). This directly leads to a better quality of life for everyone -- this is exactly the way in which economic growth leads to an improved standard of living: the same dollar can buy more than it could before, either a greater amount of goods, or goods of greater quality.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#579
This means that who gets a place to live and who doesn't will be decided by factors other than willingness or ability to pay. I imagine renter selection will come down to criteria that are no better and possibly borderline discriminatory -- how do you choose which renter to go with when you have 100 to choose from all paying the same? Should we make regulation for renter selection also?

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think most people would choose not to own a car if there wasn't a concern of money involved. Car ownership can certainly be less economical than sticking to transit/biking in some areas, but I think most people in such situations would still hypothetically prefer having the option of driving available.

I don't own a car, nor do I ever intend to do so. Cars are expensive, dangerous and overall something I've never needed to get around. This means almost all of the rural areas in America are off-limits for me, because not only is the public transportation infrastructure abysmal but it also heavily restricts my options if I wanted to get food, travel or do any form of recreation. Whenever people bring up living in are…

Car ownership is not just a given. Instead of owning a car, you could lease a pick-up truck. That would get you around pretty well, especially if you get one with AWD. Fill the back with cooking gear so you can have food. If you want to be real cheap about that, route the exhaust up into a smoker so that the truck heats your food as you drive.
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