Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon • Hacker News Board

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#571

Post by conanbatt » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:44 PM UTC

tschellenbach wrote: post #493

psadauskas wrote: post #211

How about going after Comcast and Verizon first, the actual tech monopolies ? I already don’t use Facebook, I buy things online from places other than Amazon, and have email accounts that aren’t hosted by Google. However, all of that goes over Comcast’s network because that’s my only viable choice for Internet service. Also, while FAANG occasionally do things I don’t approve of, they don’t actively lobby congress for…

Upvoted, seriously this, all the talk about Google, Amazon, Facebook hides many of the real problems and monopolies. These 3 don't even make it to a top 100 list of problematic companies.

By sheer company size i think you are undervaluing them.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#572

Post by mrep » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:46 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #558

wvenable wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazon uses profits from AWS to dump in other sectors, selling goods and services below market value. There is big competition in cloud computing so AWS is priced according to market rates. I seriously doubt AWS profit is significant enough to influence the rest of Amazon in way that would be considered monopoly abuse. Amazon's purchase of Whole Foods did not result in WF reducing prices (as was expected) to uncut…

AWS is 10% of sales but 58% of operating income. Margins on AWS are hovering around 30% and growth has been double-digit every quarter for several years now. AWS profits were worth a few hundred billion over the past seven years. As Amazon only as $40 billion in cash on hand, it's hard to argue they haven't put that money to good use.

You are off by an order of magnitude. AWS had an operating income of $7.296 Billion USD in the 12 months ending in 2018 [0] and has been growing at about 45% YOY for many years. Extrapolating those numbers gives them about $21.765 billion USD of operating income in the past 7 years.

[0]: https://ir.aboutamazon.com/news-releases/news-release-detail...

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#573

Post by hello_tyler » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:47 PM UTC

This seems like a terrible thing to campaign on. There are plenty of other more important issues to deal with. Maybe not everyone, but most people I talk to absolutely love Amazon and the convenience it offers them. Definitely not going to win in the court of public opinion.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#574

Post by darawk » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:51 PM UTC

lotu wrote: post #414

mabbo wrote: post #97

There's precedent to this in the USA. The US Government once passed regulations that caused one of the largest companies in America to break up into three smaller companies. Today those, three companies are entirely independent, employ over 400,000 people combined, and have a combined net work of over $400B. Those companies are Boeing Aircraft (153k employees, $244B market value), United Technologies (202k employees,…

The problem is this type of vertical splitting doesn't solve the problem of large tech companies. It's like treating a burst appendix with a kidney transplant. The problem of Amazon is that it is effectively the only online shopping place, and thus can act as a Monopsony in hiring it's workers for warehouses, splitting AWS out of that doesn't fix that problem. Maybe you could require that distribution centers be owne…

> Splitting up tech companies is not a punishment to make the CEO feel bad or change their ways. It is a technique to change how we need the market works to benefit the large population. As such we need to think about how to split them, the effects, and most importantly if the effect achieves the intended result.

What exactly is that intended result?

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#575

Post by TuringNYC » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:52 PM UTC

untog wrote: post #59

crowbahr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gut reaction: I feel like Android would not survive Google being forced to remove all their apps from the Google play store.

Android is perhaps the closest in comparison to Microsoft/Internet Explorer. Spin off Android into its own company, including the Play Store. There would be nothing stopping Google from keeping their apps in the Play Store, but they would sit on the same level as competing mapping and search apps, and users would choose which one to use instead of have it preinstalled.

OK but Android is a loss leader for Google's search business. If you spin off Android and Android is no longer subsidized by the search business doesnt that either

1. Raise prices for customers since now someone has to pay for Android development/upkeep/progress, or

2. Starve and kill Android and leave customers with just one major app store (Apple)?

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#576

Post by darawk » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

> The story demonstrates why promoting competition is so important: it allows new, groundbreaking companies to grow and thrive — which pushes everyone in the marketplace to offer better products and services. Aren’t we all glad that now we have the option of using Google instead of being stuck with Bing?

Erm. Should we tell her that Google came before Bing?

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#577

Post by velcrovan » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:54 PM UTC

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #344

velcrovan wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a case for splitting Amazon and AWS. The point of anti-trust laws is to break up monopolies because they represent a massive and dangerous concentration of market and political power in the hands of the few. You don't need evidence of any specific crime to do it. You can say you'd prefer it not be that way. But it's a provision of existing law, with precedents. To really argue for your preference you'd need…

George W Bush tried this against Microsoft. They were unsuccessful. You cannot just decide it's a crime to be large. The fundamental rights like unreasonable seizure and freedom of speech. Which means the government cant just steal the corporation from you or prevent your companies from working together.

In America and in many other countries, the mere fact of monopolizing a market is in fact a crime. The constitution offers no protection against this whatsoever. Go google antitrust law, and read up on some history. The Sherman Act, Standard Oil and AT&T are some good places to start.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#578

Post by smadge » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:56 PM UTC

kevinmchugh wrote: post #374

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Twitter decides tomorrow to ban the right-wing from their platform. They absolutely legally can. If you watch the recent Joe Rogan video with Tim Pool and Jack Dorsey. They didn't realize they were slowly banning the right-wing and allowing left-wing terrorists to stay on Twitter. They absolutely didn't realize they were doing this and they are going to look at fixing this. The government however could come in and…

The company twitter has set its terms of service. That is speech. What you're suggesting is eliminating the corporation's ability to do speak in that manner. Do you believe the US government has the ability to simply prohibit speech by corporate entities? Is it in accordance with free speech principles for a federal government to prohibit certain types of speech?

I don't think terms of service, basically a contract, fall under free speech. If you and I make a verbal contract that you will assassinate someone we are still breaking the law because assassinations are illegal. Our free speech isn't being violated when we are arrested for doing something illegal.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#579

Post by Kaveren » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 8:59 PM UTC

charmides wrote: post #543

Kaveren wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because something has a lot of mindshare doesn't mean you have any business silencing their choices. People who don't agree with the policies of private companies like Facebook can simply not use it. Try Gab if you want a private company that is anti-censorship.

It seems like you are just repeating the same specious point that OP was refuting. Right now, it feels like companies like Google are mostly silencing hate speech, violent extremists, and pornography, but there is no guarantee that their censorship will remain that way in the future. In a not-so-hypothetical future where a single private company has taken almost whole control over online media and starts imposing hea…

Yes, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Your opinion has no right to exist on any platform. Don't like it? You can move off of it. Bring other people to a platform that goes by rules you like. I don't use Gab, I am not interested in it, but it exists and has rules you may prefer if this hypothetical situation were to occur.

I like diverse viewpoints being allowed. It is unacceptable, however, to be so entitled as to try to force companies not to censor whatever they feel like.

Re: Elizabeth Warren Proposes Breaking Up Tech Giants Like Amazon

#580

Post by ajhurliman » Fri, Mar 08, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

mushufasa wrote: post #330

fanzhang wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, does the public have the image of Comcast and Verizon CEOs as being specific people who are really rich and dislikable? So that taking them down a notch will make the public happy? And so taking them down a notch is a good political stance? To be fair, I think there is some argument that some of the larger tech giants would benefit consumer welfare by being broken up. Facebook probably less so since people alre…

In the past couple years, a new legal theory proposed that the definition of monopoloy needs to be updated for the 21st century. Instead of focusing on consumer welfare, antitrust law should focus on 'anticompetitive behavior'. In this argument, amazon is the platform through which all other online sellers go to market, like railroads in the late 19th century. Behaving as both a platform and participant is anticompet…

Amazon Basics is a tiny part of their revenue. The conclusion that they participate in their own platform and therefore need to be broken up makes no sense.