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The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

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Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#571
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's a massive fraud who does business in the US. Why don't you make a similar defense of El Chapo?

Although El chapo is a criminal, it should not be up to the US to judge him. The drug trade is an american problem, it doesn't really matter if people from other countries are smuggling in drugs. Also, El chapo might have operatives inside the US. It should be whatever country El Chapo is building his drug trade in, who should take care of him. And if the country is corrupt, the US cannot be everywhere to help everyb…

Agreed. Law enforcement cooperating across borders is fine, but extradition is a whole new level.

Of course, it isn't completely black and white. If it's alleged you killed someone in one country, and then flee across the border, should you be extradited? Given enough evidence, yes, that sounds just.

So how about if somebody mails a bomb to an address in another country, is it just to extradite them? It's hopefully illegal in most countries, so why not try them in the country in which they were when they committed the crime, in this case building the bomb?

Cyber-crime also seems clear cut, but there's equally grey scenarios, like hacking utilities to cause harm. But for copyright infringement it's hard to see how it's just, even it it was on a commercial level.

Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#572
post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can presenting a subjective and potentially-biased interpretation of a primary source be better journalism than presenting the primary source itself?

Because the primary sources are often (as in the case of deliberate leaks that we're talking about here) subjective and definitely/intentionally biased. The journalist's job is to provide context and interpretation that are as objective as possible, even though absolute objectivity is impossible.

I don't understand how a primary source can be biased. It is factual evidence in and of itself. Wikileaks' leaks have little to no editorialization (Usually there is a 'summary' in front of the db).

Have you read the content of wikileaks' leaks? Their twitter account is a partisan mess, but their actual leaks are some of the most solid journalism of our era.

Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Objective journalism died with the subscription-based business model. Instead of optimizing for long-term reader trust, media has to get maximum eyeballs. This has always been a problem (TV news was making the shift long before print media) but it's only gotten worse. It became impossible to ignore in 2016, but it was building before that. I hear that the WSJ is still fairly reliable (if you ignore the opinion column…

What's so strange is the way that humans want their news to be less true for some emotional reason. I really love Eliezer Yudkowsky's concept of least convenient possible worlds as a heuristic for evaluating the sorts of truth claims made or implied by politicians (and often echoed by journalists). We are drawn to belief systems that make hard decisions easy, but what if some of the assumptions we take for granted ar…

> What's so strange is the way that humans want their news to be less true for some emotional reason.

Likely for the same reason that they don't actually care about the cost-effectiveness (or even statistical effectiveness) of their medical treatments. Their stated goal, learning about what's going on in the world, is not the same as their actual hidden goal.

Hypothesizing here, but a few possible reasons why people might not care that much about finding the truth in the news:

* They are more interested in having the news support their preconceptions about the world -- which are in turn based on whatever benefits them most -- so they can then use the media as "evidence" in persuasion, arguments, and other political conversations * They believe that having "their" news channels dominate the public sphere will lead others to passively accept their tribe's opinions, which then has benefits for them * They are eager to reinforce their own beliefs, choices, and biases so they can avoid the painful and expensive process of reassessing their beliefs and reconfiguring their life around those new beliefs

Again, this is all conjecture, but it is moderately supported by the anger that people hold toward news outlets that cater to the opposition.

> In my view we should not expect journalistic work to strengthen existing convictions but to challenge them and add empathy and nuance to our views of the world.

We should, and those of us who think about these things will. But sadly most of us won't. The incentives aren't there, and they likely won't be there until it's too late. Thus the endless cycles of conflict throughout history.

Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#574
post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No-one is suggesting that Assange should be prosecuted for making a TV show, so I don't see what you're getting at with the Ventura comparison. What you can't do is claim that it's somehow normal for someone who claims to be anti-authoritarian to appear on Russian state TV and take Kremlin money. The TV show is one of many examples of unusually close connections between Assange and the Russian state: https://www.vox.…

>What you can't do is claim that it's somehow normal for someone who claims to be anti-authoritarian to appear on Russian state TV and take Kremlin money. First, this also describes Ventura. Second, claiming to be anti-authoritarian while accepting help from a clearly authoritarian Kremlin describes the US in WWII. None of those connections suggest he's coordinating with Russia, just that their interests sometimes al…

>First, this also describes Ventura.

I don't really know anything about Jesse Ventura, and still don't understand why you keep bringing him up. If he's done everything that Assange has done, then I don't like him either.

> I'm sure he'd take US money and appear on PBS too if given the opportunity.

Ah, the Captain Renault defense. (Sure, I collaborate with the Nazis, but I'd just as soon collaborate with the other side if they were winning!)

Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#575
post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What you can't do is claim that it's somehow normal for someone who claims to be anti-authoritarian to appear on Russian state TV and take Kremlin money. First, this also describes Ventura. Second, claiming to be anti-authoritarian while accepting help from a clearly authoritarian Kremlin describes the US in WWII. None of those connections suggest he's coordinating with Russia, just that their interests sometimes al…

>First, this also describes Ventura. I don't really know anything about Jesse Ventura, and still don't understand why you keep bringing him up. If he's done everything that Assange has done, then I don't like him either. > I'm sure he'd take US money and appear on PBS too if given the opportunity. Ah, the Captain Renault defense. (Sure, I collaborate with the Nazis, but I'd just as soon collaborate with the other sid…

Ventura has a show that is on RT. You quoted my statement

>Again, nothing suggesting they are knowingly working with the Russians

And replied with a link to Assanges' show. I'll admit, "working" is too vague of a word to use, all my other posts use "collaborate," as selling the show to RT could be called "working with." However, if that contact is the damning evidence that you claim it is, the same evidence is available linking Ventura (and Larry King) to the Kremlin. Why aren't you calling for them to receive the same treatment?

>Ah, the Captain Renault defense. . (Sure, I collaborate with the Nazis, but I'd just as soon collaborate with the other side if they were winning!)

Still no evidence of collaboration has been shown. And nothing like that scenario, I'm sure he'd have gladly had his show run on both channels at the same time. More people would see his views and he'd make more money for his work.

Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#576
post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>First, this also describes Ventura. I don't really know anything about Jesse Ventura, and still don't understand why you keep bringing him up. If he's done everything that Assange has done, then I don't like him either. > I'm sure he'd take US money and appear on PBS too if given the opportunity. Ah, the Captain Renault defense. (Sure, I collaborate with the Nazis, but I'd just as soon collaborate with the other sid…

Ventura has a show that is on RT. You quoted my statement >Again, nothing suggesting they are knowingly working with the Russians And replied with a link to Assanges' show. I'll admit, "working" is too vague of a word to use, all my other posts use "collaborate," as selling the show to RT could be called "working with." However, if that contact is the damning evidence that you claim it is, the same evidence is availa…

>Why aren't you calling for them to receive the same treatment?

Becasue I don't know who they are, and AFAIK, there's nothing comparable to the links established in the Vox article I linked to.

Re: The US Is Preparing to Prosecute Julian Assange

#577
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ventura has a show that is on RT. You quoted my statement >Again, nothing suggesting they are knowingly working with the Russians And replied with a link to Assanges' show. I'll admit, "working" is too vague of a word to use, all my other posts use "collaborate," as selling the show to RT could be called "working with." However, if that contact is the damning evidence that you claim it is, the same evidence is availa…

>Why aren't you calling for them to receive the same treatment? Becasue I don't know who they are, and AFAIK, there's nothing comparable to the links established in the Vox article I linked to.

The Vox article you linked has three sections about the "links." The first's conclusion starts

>This isn’t a direct link between Assange and the Kremlin,

The second is the TV show, and the third is just ridiculous. Russia is the place where it is most difficult for the US to access Snowden, basically the same for the bodyguards, and one tweet showing both Assange and Russia are antisemitic? They even follow it by saying

>Again, none of these even hint that Assange is a Russian agent. What they do show, when put together, is that Assange doesn’t see Russia as an enemy or a target.

Which seems fairly obvious. He's not a Russian agent, he just views the country that has passed a law calling him a "non-state hostile intelligence service" to be a bigger enemy.

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