Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#571

Post by Fellshard » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

oftenwrong wrote: post #423

m_fayer wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A modern wealthy society that allows a bad-but-understandable move by a 16 year old girl to basically wreck her entire life, is a cruel society. Also don't overlook that America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances, and that we as a society derive strength from that. We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up - but rather capitalize on the fact that those…

>America is also supposed to be a country of redemption and second chances >We foster risk-taking, and we don't throw away people who seriously screw up These are things some Americans would like to be true, but are actually far from true, and far from universally supported. America IS a cruel society in many ways. Many Americans blame the poor for being poor, and do not support any form of public assistance. The nat…

Because we rejected the local institutions that are there to catch those rejected from the larger society and bring them back into the fold. It's a multi-component, multi-tiered system where we've decided to unplug all but the parts we think are most visible.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#572

Post by jfsid » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:07 PM UTC

kingofhdds wrote: post #538

jfsid wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sleeping the whole day is an interesting metaphor for living off of charity or being homeless, two demographics notorious for being unhappier than the working population on average. Did you choose it because spending whole days in bed is a classic symptom of depression,the illness that makes one unhappier than the average employee? I'm not sure transfering money from the later to the former would correct the inequali…

Having no ability to read your mind, I cannot tell of you are trying to invent an alternative meaning of my comment to beat a strawman, or you are really a great poet.

I find my reply in the spirit of your comment. What's wrong with sharing is that sharing is inequality...

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#573

Post by daddyofive » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

m_fayer wrote: post #525

daddyofive wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 16, she could have chosen to do a million things that would have messed up her life. Kids can choose to hurt themselves in many ways. We can’t “not allow” kids to do jumps on their dirt bikes or venture into danger in other ways. Once they are given freedom from constant adult supervision, they have to act in self interest. You think that being 16 somehow absolves them from the responsibility of surviving. That’s…

No, we should precisely look to let kids "down easy" from their errors, rather than ban activities that can lead to those errors, for the very same ends that you're advocating. When too many possible mistakes have big irreversible penalties, everyone becomes much more risk averse, and the society becomes boring and rigid. See: helicopter parenting.

Helicopter parenting basically augments the kids decision making. The parent guides them through everything. When the consequences are real, even permanent sometimes, and the it’s up to the kids to do the right thing, and they know it, and they’ve been educated properly on it, then you get a person who is healthy. They develop risk assessment and management and use it in their adult life where, surprise, you have to make essentially life or death decisions every day. You can rack up 30k on your credit card in a single swipe and, for a lot of people, that would be a kind of death. Almost every decision we make has irreversible consequences. The earlier kids learn to deal with that, the better. As long as they are educated and prepared in some way.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#574

Post by kingofhdds » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

jfsid wrote: post #572

kingofhdds wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having no ability to read your mind, I cannot tell of you are trying to invent an alternative meaning of my comment to beat a strawman, or you are really a great poet.

I find my reply in the spirit of your comment. What's wrong with sharing is that sharing is inequality...

So you are not a great poet then, and it's strawman argument.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#575

Post by thangnguyennhu » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

ahakki wrote: post #540

goblekitepe wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the American philosophy is that people who make good decisions should not have to subsidize the poor decision making of others. America has a significant social safety net, but should responsible citizens pay for the upkeep of someone who has multiple children out of wedlock before the age of 20 without any means to support those children? Absolutely not. People must take responsibility for their own actions.

Kids don‘t ask to be born, they don’t choose poor parents.

So blame parents, not the society for not taking care of kids.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#576

Post by skookumchuck » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:38 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #566

kamaal wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>It's only free if your time is worthless. If a person is poor, and they still think sparing an hour watching a Ivy League university lecture(that can vastly increase their opportunity range) isn't worth your time, they have far bigger problems related to entitlement. >>Else you have opportunity costs. And there they have a choice. Which opportunity is more important to one's life? >>and even following that free edu…

> If a person is poor, and they still think sparing an hour watching a Ivy League university lecture(that can vastly increase their opportunity range) isn't worth your time, they have far bigger problems related to entitlement. Compared to working to put food on the table? Not to mention that after back-to-back shifts, your ability to take in a Ivy League university lecture diminishes compared to somebody whose paren…

The Khan Academy has a complete set of primary and secondary education (and even college level) videos to provide necessary background. All for free, of course. They're just a click away:

https://www.khanacademy.org/

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#577

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #170

America is a country of huge wealth. Wealthy in natural resources, capital equipment, labor ... fucking everything. And yet we have such terrible poverty. When I read stories about poor people in America, always there is lurking just below the surface the key element of scarcity. Not food. Not transportation. Not clothing. Not even, surprisingly, health care. The missing factor in all these broken lives is the simple…

The issue is not that we don't have enough space.

You could rent a house in the middle of nowhere Tennessee for a couple hundred dollars a month if you wanted.

The problem is instead housing in places that people actually want to live.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#578

Post by Broken_Hippo » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 7:55 PM UTC

Faark wrote: post #557

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not actually poor and I don't make my bed. My house is cluttered, mostly because I'm frugal and we live in a house that is a bit too small for our hobbies (art for me, music for the spouse, though we both dabble in the other). I have more money this way. I'm lazy. And honeslty, the only time I've really gotten crap for this type of thing is when I'm poor and honestly too freaking tired to do any of this stuff. TH…

> I'm lazy. I am as well. And have parents enabling this behavior, with an career outcome as bad as you could expect. I can totally understand that part of the political spectrum doesn't want to encourage this at all (favorable interpretation of them), even though they IMO often overshoot that goal and advance less optimal outcomes. > I will also assume you are talking about older children. Most 13-year olds just don…

Your phrasing makes this seem like a natural fact. Finding ways to deeply engrave important values (work hard, strive for greatness, delayed gratification, stuff like that) into future generations seems like a real challenge right now. A

My comment was really more about brain development, maturity, puberty (and the hormones that go with it), and things like that. It doesn't mean they are lazy or anything like that at all. These things are learned, and these young people aren't even in high school.

"mostly letting them do what they want" isn't true now and I don't think that has ever been true. As far as what to do next, we can start by trying to make sure folks have stable households which include not only things like shelter, food, and medical care but also things like internet access. These things lessen the stresses that are an issue - being poor won't necessarily make you suffer.

Make sure kids have freedom to explore. Treat kids like they are intelligent (they are, just not mature) and teach what sort of work goes into getting things. Be realistic about what to expect out of life (for example, a chem degree might really wind up working in a lab somewhere). We could do things like showing kids how work and patience pays off by allowing "fun" subjects (arts, music, inclusive sports, "hobby" classes). Increases in freedoms as kids get older so they can experiment with some of their choices (Such as being able to have free contact with friends, choosing one's own classes, ability to not follow in the parent's religion). A 13 year old might not be mature enough to realise what to do to make their future better 15 years into the future, but these sorts of lessons can be taught so when the maturity catches up it'll come together.

(I should note that naturally, some kids are geared more towards some of the long-term planning than others and I cannot speak for all young folks, just what I notice).

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#579

Post by xphx » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 8:07 PM UTC

mch82 wrote: post #363

throwaway8879 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not trying to make a point or rallying against anything. I'm simply saying that I work hard to acquire resources for myself and will never give them away. We can all make moral/ethical/humane arguments about equality and fairness but I simply don't care. If that makes me unintelligent, then I suppose that's just something I'll have to accept.

So you choose the suboptimal box in the prisoners’ dilemma?

Hopefully useful nitpick: In the "prisoner's dilemma", it's the dominant strategy. It's only sub-optimal in the /iterated/ prisoner's dilemma, the ominous reason being an expectation of continuity.

Re: Americans Want to Believe Jobs Are the Solution to Poverty. They’re Not

#580

Post by mcny » Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

richpimp wrote: post #541

mcny wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Refrain from having children if you cannot afford to have children. People love to tell me I'm insensitive but I say the community needs to step up and do it part to help raise the children. We won't do that. We harp on about "personal responsibility". I think most* people who don't already have children (me included) should elect to not have children in the current situation. There is no benefit to havin…

> Refrain from having children if you cannot afford to have children. I'm 100% on board with this. You can make a lot of mistakes in your life and still pull yourself up if you're unencumbered by marriage and kids. I know from personal experience. I was deep in debt and making poor life decisions in my twenties. It took until until my thirties to get my act together. It was hard, but would have probably been impossib…

> I think it's more important to wait until you're emotionally mature and financially secure enough to do it. If it's not for you, by all means, don't have kids. Being on the other side of it now, though, I can say that it's quite a transformative experience.

>> financially secure

I think the point of the article is that based on the current trajectory, a big chunk of the population will never get there.

I just searched this on Google:

> According to a 2016 GOBankingRates survey, 35 percent of all adults in the U.S. have only several hundred dollars in their savings accounts and 34 percent have zero. Only 15 percent have over $10,000 stashed away.

https://screenshotscdn.firefoxusercontent.com/images/7323d18...