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The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

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Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#571

You decide to go on a trip, next you get out a map. This makes perfect sense, and in no way reflects poorly on the British people.

If you decide to jump over a cliff, you really should havr looked at the map first. Just to check how high the fall would be.

When I travel through a new country, I look at a general map first. When I get to a new area in a country that's now in my direct personal experience, I look at a more detailed map.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's taboo to say this but I've been reading a lot about Ancient Rome before Ceasar and yearn for that type of government. I know people have a disdain for aristocracy but people in charge were raised knowing they'd be powerful. As such, they'd be extensively educated both academically and in Roman culture. (Also sometimes moving to Greece to study at the best universities in the world). There was also no partisanshi…

> There was also no partisanship as each senator made the moves that benefitted them or their people the most. How would you describe the populares and the optimates?

these weren't parties really. it's similiar to saying you are a populist. To me bernie sanders and trump are both populists yet have vastly different views and would never be considered the same party.

edit: as it says on wikipedia, " ...the designation populares refers as much to political tactics as to any perceived policy."

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#573
post #340

the general public is too dumb to vote on matters like this. This is when democracy fails. Remember, Hitler was elected as well.

Yep, this is just like Hitler and the holocaust.

I was simply using the rise of Hitler as an example of when democracies fail. To see any other link is just an indication of abysmal reading comprehension.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#574
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got some really bad looks in my office building when some people overheard me telling a colleague I rather Clinton lose than Trump lose, due to her preference for fighting wars. One person looked at me like if they could kill me, he would, like I was some enemy. A lot of anti-Trump people accuse Trump supporters of bigotry and exclusion, but I think that's projection on their part. No, I don't feel comfortable writ…

> I think that's projection on their part I'm sorry, what ? You can certainly call it prejudice. There's plenty of trump supporters who aren't bigots, but there's also a lot of them who are, and Trump's campaign has been majorly based on demagoguery, bigotism and xenophobia. If you're voicing/implying support for someone whose campaign is built on racism, don't be surprised if you're getting dirty looks. As for dirty…

They are both very egoistic and unsuitable as presidents. One of them has a strong history of deliberate action fanning the flames of war which has led to the current refugee situation in Europe, notwithstanding the hundreds of thousands killed and millions displaced, the other talks about building walls and keeping people out of the country, instead of interfering with people out of the country, plus some BS talk about nukes and Mexicans. Guaranteed warmonger or probable asshole? I choose the latter. But really, they are both horrible choices so in the end it doesn't mean much to have the 'better' one win. Why do people have strong emotional responses to people having different preferences?

And you weren't with me to see that look. It was incredibly hostile. No I don't think he literally wanted to kill me, but he had the same look as a person who would. (From movies)

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#575
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, this is just like Hitler and the holocaust.

I was simply using the rise of Hitler as an example of when democracies fail. To see any other link is just an indication of abysmal reading comprehension.

Hitler wasn't elected and bringing up Hitler here evokes a scenario far more dire than leaving the EU. Your original point was bad and I regret wasting time on it.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU does not "govern" Britain in any meaningful sense, but I agree the "independence" strawman was a strong motivator for the separatist movement.

It does: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3... > The regulation is directly applicable in all EU countries. This means that it: > - applies immediately as the norm in all EU countries, without needing to be transposed into national law, > - creates rights and obligations for individuals and they can therefore invoke it directly before national courts, > - can be used as a reference by indivi…

While the regulations apply instantly, it's because national gov'ts passed laws saying "You need to follow european regulations".

It's like how the FCC can change regulations regarding radio usage without passing a law. You're just delegating rule-making

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#577
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you decide to jump over a cliff, you really should havr looked at the map first. Just to check how high the fall would be.

When I travel through a new country, I look at a general map first. When I get to a new area in a country that's now in my direct personal experience, I look at a more detailed map.

"What is the EU" isn't a detailed map. It's the most general for the purpose. "How many times a year does the chamber of ministers meet" would be a more detailed local map.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#578
post #82

I'm strangely moved by this whole thing. It's a pretty decent status check on where we are with democracy ATM. I'm not against democracy, but I do think we need to pay attention to what it can & can't do. On one hand, this has been a model of democracy. A primary election agenda and referendum. The phrasing of the question was simple, clear and unbiased. The "will of the people" won over the will of the ruling struct…

> We haven't figured this shit out yet. Kings anyone? How about the best wrestler gets to be in charge? ideas? As a Swiss citizen, I think the swiss system is very close to perfect in this regard. Sure, emotional and stupid arguments sometimes prevail, but most of the time the people make the perfect decision. Public discourse is most often also very rational, more so than most world parliaments. Irrational arguments…

I don't think I have a better alternative to direct democracy, but it's not perfect either. I'd like to point out that the Swiss system is very far from perfect for the same reasons other systems are. Did everyone forget about the horrible minaret vote?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_minaret_referendum,_2009

And that was a constitutional amendment referendum!

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the point you are trying to make but India wouldn't have been better off economically under British Empire. British decimated the Indian economy http://www.thehindu.com/2005/07/10/stories/2005071002301000.... As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6 per cent in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3 per cent…

That's comparing apples to oranges though. China was also huge at the time, and no Europeans were there to screw it over. Yet, they were irrelevant by the turn of the 20th century. (If you really want something to point fingers at, try the habits that stem from the cultural and religious landscapes. You can't erase millennia worth of those overnight.)

Europeans didn't screw over China? Come on - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

Europeans screwed over every single country they could.

Re: The British are Googling what the E.U. is, hours after voting to leave it

#580
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is not other people. The UK has always held large power in controlling the EU. Obviously in concert with others, but such is the nature of cooperation. This othering of the EU is really lazy. The EU was never some ominous foreign entity. Plus, get better education if that's the problem. My civics teacher was quite adept at explaining the EU. For historic reasons there is some ugly cruft, but it's nevertheless…

Barely anyone knew who represented them in Europe. Fewer still knew what powers those representatives had. I suspect 99% could not name more than five people in the EU machine, including Nigel Farage as a free point. The EU is absolutely other people to the UK.

This is a failure of media coverage and attention, not the EU.

And the people who were representing them are, well, mostly still David Cameron. One of the sad things about the EU is that it could never completely shake this thing many supranational organizations have, i.e. that the top-dogs are the heads of the respective member-state governments (and maybe their ministers if it’s about more narrow areas of expertise). Without them nothing can happen. They are still centrally important and involved everywhere and most everything that’s decided is done with consensus and not majority rule.

The people implementing the details are truly not that important. Do you know (many) people below the minister level in your country? It’s not relevant.

People I can think of in the EU off the top of my head: Jean-Claude Junker, president of the commission. Martin Schulz, president of the parliament. Julia Reda, cool European MP from Germany. Beatrix von Storch, racist European MP from Germany. Martin Sonneborn, European MP from Germany, member of a satirical joke party.

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