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This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

okwu.edu

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Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was following your argument until this part: "All the anti-safe-space discussion on Hacker News lately is truly, horribly, fucking disgustingly indicative of the inherent sexism and flat-out hatred that worms its way through developer culture." I don't see how you made this connection. The way it's worded seems to imply that holding opinions that safe space have issues in practice would lead to being sexist and hav…

Holding the opinion that safe spaces are cudgels of fear used to intimidate people probably indicates exactly what I said it did.

At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being.

That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-minded people come together in a private space, they don't then declare "This place is a safe space for $x people". It's obvious that everyone present is of like-mind, and those who are there for purposes other than discussion of the topic at hand can be expelled through social means as a consensus action of the group without any need for authority involvement.

Meanwhile, I often hear the term "safe space" used by people when they want to take over a shared space to insulate themselves from people who might disagree with them or maybe even be bigots towards them, while in public. I am not in any way arguing that bigotry is socially acceptable, but it is protected speech, and while it is perfectly appropriate to tell people that their bigotry is offensive, inappropriate, and unwelcome, it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not.

My opinion, which I think is largely in-line with the person you replied to, is not one born out of hatred or bigotry, it's born out of concern about the death of dissent. It's a concern that our culture is shifting to one where everyone lives in an echo chamber and is intolerant of any ideas not of their own making. It is perfectly acceptable as a society to be intolerant of intolerance, and that includes both intolerance based in bigotry as well as intolerance based in delusion. This is not an argument in favor of people "just taking it" when others behave in inappropriate ways towards them, but it is a plea for reason around dissent. Respectful disagreement is not offensive or inappropriate, even though some people may use disrespectful terms in their dissent which themselves are offensive or inappropriate, that does not mean that all people who disagree are inherently offensive. It is not oppression to disagree with someone, it is oppression to prevent dissenting opinions.

Given that so much of the influence and respect people in the public eye have these days is based on the appearance that they're socially/politically appropriate, it's very clear how claims of victimhood can be used to intimidate. In some cases, I don't have much sympathy for those who have come under fire since they are in a position to clearly state their position and walk away relatively unscathed, but some people unfortunately are not in that situation. Take for instance, the two Yale professors who clearly argued for school administrators to allow students to define their own standards and for students to have a discussion, instead were reviled unfairly by some students who instead want administrators to use their authority to impose speech controls. Unfortunately, those Yale professors have less influence with which to save themselves than the administrators who more often come under fire.

Perhaps the most confusing thing to me about this whole situation is that in most cases the people calling for "safe spaces" are people who are part of marginalized groups or are saying that they act on behalf of marginalized groups. The social concepts surrounding free association, free speech, and dissent are there to protect marginalized groups. It allows them to exist, gather, and discuss their ideas, thoughts, experiences, and feelings and to publicly disagree with people who are in the majority groups and be protected from the oppression of being silenced by authority while doing so. It seems strange to me that the people claiming to be proponents of marginalized groups would want to take away these protections from anyone.

I could write more, but I don't think it would lend anything else to the point I'm trying to make. If anyone reading this is unable to understand the difference between free association of like-minded people in private spaces vs trying to enforce speech controls on everyone, including those who may not be like-minded, in a shared space, and why the latter might be concerning to many for reasons that do not originate from any personal hatred or bigotry, I will attempt to clarify further. Otherwise, I hope the above is well-stated enough to put forward that position.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely sure what all you're getting at, but you don't find conservatives running around offended that you said "estate tax" instead of "death tax" or, more importantly, trying to make others use their preferred euphemism. Having said that, I fully admit there may be a few phrases that conservatives might be a bit sensitive to, but it would surely be a very short list.

Why do they call it the Death Tax? Why do they call the lobbying for prevention of medical treatment for women, Pro-life? Why can't they call the opposition party by their actual name?

Why do they call it the Death Tax?

...because the estate tax has the effect of being a tax on dying.

Why do they call the lobbying for prevention of medical treatment for women, Pro-life?

Because we think elective abortions (almost all abortions are elective) are not medical treatment, but rather a barbaric practice in which one person is killed for the convenience of the other, and in most cases is harmful in the long-term to the survivor as well. I feel strongly about this, but I'm not upset by people who want to call me "anti-abortion", because I am.

Why can't they call the opposition party by their actual name?

Uh....what? Do you mean "the Democratic Party" as opposed to the "Democrat Party"? I think that one is better chalked up to colloquial speech, regardless of what the Wikipedia article says.

But like I said - being a lifelong Republican and conservative activist, I know exactly zero people who would be upset if you didn't say "death tax", "pro-life", or "Democrat Party" (or PPACA instead of ObamaCare).

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along those lines, I think formal debate should be required in secondary education, and students should be required to defend the position they disagree with.

I did formal debate in high school and university, and agree with wfo - formal debate is possibly one of the worst things to teach if your goal is understanding and critical thinking about topics. Keep in mind that in a typical formal debate you don't get to pick your sides - you are assigned a position on an issue and must successfully argue in favor of that position. Formal debate is about the art of rhetoric, and…

Sad, it would be better if the emphasis was on pure logical rigor.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holding the opinion that safe spaces are cudgels of fear used to intimidate people probably indicates exactly what I said it did.

At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being. That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-min…

Yes, exactly right. Thank you for more clearly articulating what I seemed to have scrawled out with crayons in comparison.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holding the opinion that safe spaces are cudgels of fear used to intimidate people probably indicates exactly what I said it did.

At this point, I realize you're trolling, but in the interest of anyone else reading I feel it's appropriate to reply. I'm someone who pretty universally supports the rights of others to be themselves, however that might be, and be treated with respect as a human being. That said, the term "safe space" is something I've never personally encountered being used in the context you present it in. When a group of like-min…

> it's not appropriate to ask that an authority come in and forcibly establish a zone in a shared space where-in some speech is okay and other speech is not.

How do you feel about your HR department and their anti-discrimination and harassment policies? :)

You get more protections from harassment in the workplace than students get on campus.

Tolerance of intolerance (e.g., hate speech) leads inevitability to the extinction of tolerance itself. Discussions on why intolerance exists and what can be done to combat it are precisely why safe spaces exist. And yes, I believe university campuses should be exclusively safe places. Hate speech itself has no place in an institute of education - just as it has no place in the workplace. Discussions about hate speech, on the other hand, absolutely do.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#577
post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People aren't just scared of being forbidden from making racist jokes. People are scared of being forbidden to express opinions. Like, here's someone who was fired for saying someone else shouldn't have been fired: http://www.gamerevolution.com/manifesto/turtle-rock-communit... And it makes me pretty uncomfortable when people express "fear of being attacked for doing something that's okay", and other people turn that…

My problem with this line of argument is that people who aren't well-off straight white guys like myself are already scared of expressing opinions. They have been for centuries. The only thing that has changed is that people with privilege, on rare occasion, can no longer say certain things without any consequence. As Popehat writes, freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. There's an important ques…

I think the proper response is to not silence or discourage any speech, but to make sure non-straight white (non-){0,1}guys have no fear of speaking just like their straight white brethren.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between a free and voluntary association of like-minded people and a so-called "safe space", which uses a pretext of "victimization" to capriciously thought control others who simply committed the offense of disagreeing or criticizing. If you hate Christianity, why would you go to this school? If you aren't willing to follow behavioral rules, why would you go to this school? If you think ph…

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

> There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is.

The concept of safe spaces originally came out of the societal intersection of the LGBT, Riot grrrl and 3rd wave feminist movements of the late 80's/early 90's, where there was an existential threat of violence and intimidation from opponents/bigots/homophobes/just dicks.

As you say, vital for those movements and the people in them at the time.

Where the threat is not of violence and intimidation, but rather of hurt feelings due to encountering someone with different political or religious views from you, I think it's better for society as a whole for those feelings to get hurt; or preferably some spirited and hopefully non-intentionally inflammatory discourse to occur between people of opposing views so that we can better understand each other and progress as a society.

I'm not saying that safe spaces are not needed any more, just that they seem to be increasingly used where they are not necessary.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a stark difference between what people who dislike the concept of "safe space" think a "safe space" is and what a "safe space" actually is. A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. A "safe space" is a place where people can discuss the actual issues of hatred, bigotry an…

A "safe space" is a place where you know you aren't going to be singled out and harmed (verbally or physically) by someone telling you that you're a queer faggot and deserve to die. FWIW, this concept of safe space isn't quite what I had in mind. I think, perhaps, what I failed to articulate is that the safe space concept that grinds my gears is the kind that is an expectation carried around by people who really do j…

The professor is the one who brought up the safe place terminology in this instance. Not the student.

One thing to realize, also, is the context of love (as the topic of discussion in the classroom was in 1 Corinthians 13) in many evangelical circles.

Love, defined in many conservative christian circles, is devotion to the Church, the Husband and God, to the exclusion of all else. Even when it hurts. It's about staying in an abusive relationship because you need to submit to your husband's wishes, no matter what. It is not the selfless emotional connection of one person to another. It is the subjugation of the self.

This student may very well have felt victimized for how love was being talked about. But all we know about the classroom discussion was that the topic was 1 Corinthians 13. Not what was actually talked about with regard to that chapter. I've heard 1 Corinthians 13 be twisted in some very evil ways.

Re: This Is Not a Day Care. It’s a University

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Really? Citation please; I simply don't believe this. Most Christian universities that I have any knowledge of invite (or at least aren't averse to it) tough discussion, and allow for a pretty wide range of critical thought about interpretations of the Bible, how Christianity should relate to politics, culture, science, and many other subjects. You have missed out on the wave of evangelical schools that market to p…

>The University supports the stance of The Wesleyan Church on the issue of dancing. No dancing guys and gals, it encourages the encroachment of evil upon the home.

You wouldn't joke about it if you saw my dancing.
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