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I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

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Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#561

Post by ashley »

bane wrote: post #80
shas3 wrote: post #68

The US legal immigration system is perfectly described by the adjective, Kafkaesque. In terms of the arbitrariness of bureaucracy, it has more in common with what I saw in the socialist days of India and what one reads in books by Solzhenitsyn and Kafka. The iniquities have been discussed repeatedly in popular press, with almost no changes wrought in the process. Many years ago (yes, 2011 was 4 years ago) Newsweek ra…

Part of the problem with improving the system is that there's simply no incentive. Immigration reform almost entirely centers on managing undocumented/illegal immigrants. Law Makers don't have to listen to petitions from people outside of the country let alone their own jurisdictions. The other part is that people who've suffered through the process don't turn around and try to fix it, I remember when my wife was goi…

Part of the problem is identifying the actual abusers of the visa-system applicable to skilled workers. The public debate in elections may make the biggest noise about undocumented immigrants, but there is behind-the-scenes discussion about the H1-B and L-1 system. This August, the USCIS will announce its decision on expanding the L-1 definition of "specialized knowledge". The L-1, the lesser-known brother of the H1-B, is a 3-year non-immigrant visa that is extendable for up to 5 years and can be reissued if the employee in question leaves the US and works for the sponsoring company for another year. People are eligible to apply for the L-1 if they have worked for a US company abroad or will be opening and running US-branch office for a foreign company (other cases apply, just not available off the top of my head) About a third of applications are rejected though, biased towards India. Abusers of the H1-B and L-1 system are the blue-chip, non-tech companies who use out-sourcing IT companies like Cognizant, Infosys, Tata, Wipro to cut costs in their tech departments. Talking about immigration reform is not so much about lack of incentive as it is about the emotions arising from the stories of Disney IT workers being fired and having to retrain their H1-B replacements who are getting paid lower wages. Another aspect not discussed is whether expanding the H1-B system perpetuates ageism in the Valley -- why not push out older workers at the expense of getting fresh foreign grads? No large change can happen when fear is present.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#562

Post by hotaru29 »

mikekchar wrote: post #359
diego_moita wrote: post #272

Disclaimer: I am a Canadian permanent resident. > I like it here. This is the real problem, you have a severe case of non-reciprocal love. In that case the answer is obvious: move over, find another love, come to Canada or go to Northern Europe. U.S. immigration is an American problem,since they are the ones loosing talent and entrepreneurial people. It is not an immigrant's problem, since they don't have the powers…

> Here in Canada we have a much more open immigration policy "Much more open" is a relative term, I suppose. I am a Canadian citizen, born in Canada with all my family (save my wife) living in Canada. I live in Japan with my wife who is Japanese. A few years ago my wife wanted to move to an English speaking country so that she could improve her English and live abroad. I'll just be plain. It was easier for me to get…

> After 5 years in the country I can apply for permanent residence

AFAIK, IANAL, you can get a permanent resident after 5 years on a preferential/highly skilled visa. This may be difficult for some people to get. See this Excel table:

http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/newimmiact_3/en/evaluate/index.htm...

To get permanent residence on a normal visa, you have to stay at least 10 years. That is problematic for people who stayed in Japan before the preferential visa system was introduced: previous stay does not count towards the 5 years of preferential visa.

See here:

http://www.tokyoimmigration.jp/eng/eijyu.html

Furthermore, Japanese permanent residency is much weaker than other countries. Children born to permanent residents do not get citizenship (this is okay if you are from a 1st world country, but problematic for those from 3rd world countries who want to improve their situation). In Australia&UK, permanent residents' children can obtain citizenship. In Canada, USA it is unconditional.

And getting citizenship, when not married to a Japanese person, is next to impossible.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#563

Post by hackerboos »

testrun wrote: post #239
hackerboos wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was awarded Permanent Residency to me and my wife without either of us ever having visited Canada or a firm job offer(s). No other country does that. The Canadian immigration system is one of the most generous around.

Australia is the same. Got permanent residency without being in Australia.

Recently? What is the program name?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#564

Post by protomyth »

ericdschmidt wrote: post #522
protomyth wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's mostly because those commentors on HN can't code worth their salt, and can't find a job, in an industry with thousands of unfilled positions, and need a scapegoat to pile hatred on. I don't think that's true, but I don't expect we'll be giving programming tests to each commentor to get hard data Most of the points stated on those hateful comments are either factually wrong, or overstate something as being th…

"A basic security problem" So what if anyone can come and go. You live in a town or city, right? So the adjacent towns, they let you just waltz in and out of them right? They "don't control who comes through." Is that so terrible? Do you think your town should have a big wall around it and strict security cause you're worried about a potential fugitive slipping in? No, that's stupid. It's just a really inefficient/cu…

> So what if anyone can come and go.

Nope. The border needs to be secure. There are people who hate the US and have committed violence against its people. This is a basic security problem and open borders would be a disaster. Your city argument is bunk, we are a country under a common Constitution, not a collection of city-states.

> And by the way, you can get smuggled into the US via the Mexican borders for like a couple thousand bucks

Yep, and the government needs to do everything in its power to shut that down. Illegal immigration hurts the chances of any legal immigration package.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#565

Post by emodendroket »

dsinsky wrote: post #391
bruceb wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because if you have some criticism of policies that allow Disney to have workers train their foreign replacement you must be some kind of xenophobic racist. Immigration is a complex issue. Name calling doesn't solve anything.

I'd be open to hearing your criticism of policies that allow Disney to have [American] workers train their foreign replacements that don't invoke any sort of xenophobia or racism. The whole idea that it would be wrong or humiliating to have to train someone who had the gall to be born in a different (and generally poorer) country is based on the notion that Americans should be treated with more regard than people bor…

> I'd be open to hearing your criticism of policies that allow Disney to have [American] workers train their foreign replacements that don't invoke any sort of xenophobia or racism.

If their replacements were white guys from Texas it would still be equally humiliating and offensive for people to be asked to train their lower-wage, less-skilled replacements as a condition for receiving severance. Come on. And unlike citizens, people on work visas have no real leverage to negotiate for higher wages (since their work visas are tied up with the company they work for or at least their ability to find a new sponsor), so the idea that they couldn't possibly suppress wages seems silly.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#566

Post by protomyth »

winter_blue wrote: post #469
protomyth wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's mostly because those commentors on HN can't code worth their salt, and can't find a job, in an industry with thousands of unfilled positions, and need a scapegoat to pile hatred on. I don't think that's true, but I don't expect we'll be giving programming tests to each commentor to get hard data Most of the points stated on those hateful comments are either factually wrong, or overstate something as being th…

I'd just like to address your last point: > I cannot imagine why we don't have a system for taking students who come to this country to be educated in college and give them a work visa not tied to a company. This exists already. It's called "F-1 OPT". It allows students to work in the field of their major for 12 months normally, but if they had a STEM major, for 29 months. > I wonder why we don't allow a pool of skil…

> This exists already. It's called "F-1 OPT".

By all accounts, it doesn't work worth a crud in its current form.

> That's what the H1B is.

My friends on H1B's couldn't switch jobs freely. H1B transfers are just trading indentured servants and not a good thing for freedom of the person.

> Also your pining for work visas to be "abolished" without offering a meaningful alternative is equivalent to pining for no skilled immigration.

I have never heard of anyone advocating abolishment of the H1B without a transition for those in the system and having a replacement. Don't try to phrase it like I am against immigration. The current systems don't work for people coming here or US workers.

> A lot of international students who study here, and graduate from U.S. schools end up effectively getting deported because of the quota on H1B visas.

Seems the F-1 OPT isn't working.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#567

Post by emodendroket »

ericdschmidt wrote: post #522
protomyth wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's mostly because those commentors on HN can't code worth their salt, and can't find a job, in an industry with thousands of unfilled positions, and need a scapegoat to pile hatred on. I don't think that's true, but I don't expect we'll be giving programming tests to each commentor to get hard data Most of the points stated on those hateful comments are either factually wrong, or overstate something as being th…

"A basic security problem" So what if anyone can come and go. You live in a town or city, right? So the adjacent towns, they let you just waltz in and out of them right? They "don't control who comes through." Is that so terrible? Do you think your town should have a big wall around it and strict security cause you're worried about a potential fugitive slipping in? No, that's stupid. It's just a really inefficient/cu…

I don't think you're being fair here. Law enforcement has trouble crossing national borders, for one thing (especially in the case of Mexico where organized criminals have outright bought off lots of politicians). I don't think people who look at big drug-related massacres in Mexico on the news and feel worried about cartels entering the US are necessarily bigots.

> And by the way, you can get smuggled into the US via the Mexican borders for like a couple thousand bucks. There's a whole industry around this. The people who do the smuggling are called 'coyotes". Any serious terrorist is already here, via that border.

You're making this sound easier than it is. Lots of people die trying to do this now.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#568

Post by emodendroket »

dsinsky wrote: post #480
gech wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is Disney going to pay the new 200 employees the same wages, and work them the same? Are the new employees going to ask for the same pay, and ask for the same treatment? Do they even have an empowered position to ask for that?

Maybe not, but even if not, why are you so sure that would be bad? Let's say the foreign workers would have made the equivalent of $20k in their own country but will now make $60k for Disney in the U.S. vs. the American workers who made, say, $80k but will now end up settling for new jobs that only pay $60k (in addition to their unemployment, social security and subsidized health insurance and other social safety net…

> (By the way, the stylized figures above are very generous to your anti-immigration case, since while there is plenty of evidence that immigrants 2-3x their incomes by working in the U.S., there is no reason to believe that American's actually suffer 25% income losses to do competition from immigrants. Most studies show no change or a positive impact to native workers' wages and the few that show a negative impact show at most a ~5% decrease.)

Why do you think Disney would replace a ton of workers with inexperienced ones unless they're saving on wages?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#569

Post by talmand »

ericdschmidt wrote: post #531
talmand wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would one be afraid of immigrants because of past treatment of original natives when chances are the immigrants are descended from people who did similar things to the original natives of their homeland? As an easy example, I'm fairly certain the original natives of the southern portions of the North American continent weren't speaking Spanish when the conquistadors showed up. I would disagree that is is for the…

"Move from one stagnant area into a prosperous one to the point of dragging it down to be stagnant as well?" Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong... 100 times wrong. Productivity is the root of all prosperity. First read this excellent article: http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2015/02/always_keep_you.... . Workers become on average ~20x more productive when they migrate to the first world. Because we are capital rich and…

I'm sorry, I simply cannot fully agree with your statement. I also see you are ignoring a great deal of my statement. It is true up to a certain point that what you say is true, as I also said. But if you open the border wide to let anybody in for any reason the near utopia you are describing is just not possible. When someone crosses the border and finds a job to be the productive citizen you describe, all's well. What about when multiples start crossing and there are no jobs for them to have? Let's say your wonderful catering company has too many workers now and not enough new tech companies to sustain hiring yet more people streaming across your open border. Social services will start to fail as the demand increases but the tax revenue doesn't increase with the demand to support it. There are many municipalities out there that are struggling to come up with the money to support the influx of immigrants that were placed, not moved on their own, by means outside their control. I'm not even talking about obvious things like welfare. I'm talking having to suddenly build schools and hire teachers that weren't in the budget to support all these new kids that are suddenly showing up.

Question, would slicing coconuts on the side of the road in Haiti provide the equivalent in pay as taking a low paying catering job in the US considering and comparing elements such as cost-of-living and whatnot? There are many people living in ways we would consider abject poverty but seem to be much happier with their situation than many of the supposed better off immigrants. It's sometimes about perspective too.

I would also say the current economic status of many countries around the world suggest that "everyone way fucking richer in one fell swoop" is not happening regardless of their immigration policies. Everyone is definitely not getting richer in the US despite the years of people pouring across, what is essentially, our open border.

But hey, I'm not an economist, so what do I know?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#570

Post by hluska »

jacquesm wrote: post #163
hluska wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not the OP, but I mostly support the idea of open borders and I'm from Canada. Canada has many of the same issues that New Zealand has. We are the second largest country (by landmass) in the world, yet our population is slightly smaller than California. Much of our land is quite rugged, or very cold but our country is still capable of supporting more than the 35 million we currently have. The best argument that I…

Opening the Canadian border would not magically bring jobs back that have been moved to low wage countries.

Of course it won't..and in no way did I imply that it would.

However, latest labour force survey indicated that ~ 1.7 million people still work in manufacturing. While this is the lowest number of manufacturing jobs in Canada since 1976, it still employees a relatively large percentage of our work force. The issue that worries economists is that a large percentage of our remaining manufacturers operate below capacity. When our dollar declined relative to the U.S. dollar, some economists thought it would slow the slide, but the issue remains that manufacturing still costs too many Canadian dollars. Since NAFTA prevents our government from directly subsidizing manufacturing (in most sectors), lowering labour cost is the best tonic left.

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