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SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

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Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#561

Post by Daniel_Newby »

mwetzler wrote: post #287
blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> the women I've talked to about this are furious with her This doesn't represent the views of all women in tech. What happened to Adria could happen to any of us outspoken women. She didn't handle the situation perfectly, but there's no way she could have known this would unfold in this way. She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him. I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the…

> What happened to Adria could happen to any of us outspoken women.

Only if by "outspoken" you mean "inept witch hunter with a messiah complex".

> ... many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality.

The chief occupational hazard of the witch hunter is being caught out by one's followers. The disciples possess only the paranoia and lack of mercy drilled into them.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#562

Post by Daniel_Newby »

onemorepassword wrote: post #49

In events like these I'm glad I'm living under protective labor laws and not in the US. That would have forced all parties involved to talk it out like grown-ups instead of resorting to terminating those involved. Now there is no kind of resolution, but two people are unemployed and two companies are damaged. Nice going.

> In events like these I'm glad I'm living under protective labor laws and not in the US.

Why?! The developer in question is essentially unemployable in Europe, because of the superficial appearance that there might be something wrong with him. Hiring in Europe is a high-stakes decision, so companies weed out applicants that have even the smallest warning signs. Whereas in America he will have a new job in short order.

Even worse, in Europe his former colleagues would be trapped in contracts with an employer that has revealed themselves as a total asshat. Whereas in America, there is a good chance that the asshat company will soon be without an engineering staff or the ability to hire a new one as it should be.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#563

Post by Steuard »

mc32 wrote: post #532
cjbprime wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would appear to be sexual. I'm not certain it needs to be sexist. This all seems like a waste of time. Here's how I think it should work: we ask women what they want ("hey, how about sexualized jokes at tech conferences?") and they tell us ("actually, we really hate it when you do that, probably much more than you realize") and then we stop, because we respect them and it turns out that making sex jokes wasn't a…

What if we polled all conferences for all language that some attending population feel is off the table? Should lawyers plan to vote to ban all lawyer jokes, even if said by insiders? What about bankers' conferences, maybe have them keep attendees from asking pointed questions about bailouts and fraud, etc? I don't think people should be jocular and act like college fraternity members all their lives, but at the same…

I may be misunderstanding you here, but your comments feel to me as if they're based on an assumption that everyone in society faces more or less comparable levels of offensive behavior. For instance, to my eye, your argument about lawyers only holds water if it's based on the assumption that lawyers (as a group) routinely face a level of marginalization and abuse that women (as a group) do.

In point of fact there's no urgency about banning lawyer jokes, because lawyers are one of the most respected professions in our society (as measured by various surveys about social status, etc.). Through some combination of talent, hard work, and good fortune they have wound up in a group that suffers very little discrimination. When people do make jokes about them they may find it unpleasant, but at the end of the day they're still more or less on the top of the heap.

Women, on the other hand, face a thoroughly entrenched social structure that treats them as less capable and less important than men. There's a recognized problem that many women feel uncomfortable in technical circles, and offensive jokes are a real part of that problem. So every offensive joke about women needs to be understood against that background: it's not a one-time irritation, but part of an ongoing pattern. So attempts to discourage those jokes aren't just "nobody should feel offended, ever", they're one small step that we can take to fix the much larger problem.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#564

Post by JohnBooty »

katbyte wrote: post #553
JohnBooty wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line gets drawn here: it's not good behavior to subject a stranger to unwanted sexual banter. You can change the setting to a bus, or a train, or a tent in the Himalayas.

So your saying anytime in public a penis joke is out of line? So when in public we cannot say anything that may potentially offend someone? I can't say god doesn't exist for fear of offending the religious? i can't say god does exist for fear of offending the atheists? That's some line you drew.

Why would you need to subject a stranger to your sex jokes or your proclamations about the existence/non-existence of God?

Seriously, you should get to know somebody a little bit before you discuss that stuff. Or simply wait for some kind of indication they actually want to talk about it with you.

Sure, it's true that literally anything you might offend somebody and that you can never totally avoid that. I'm sure there's a person somewhere in the world who has a panic attack every time they see somebody wearing a green sweater. Should we have to somehow anticipate this and avoid wearing green sweaters? No.

Sexual jokes from strange men aren't like that, though. That's not some fringe thing; that's something that actually makes a significant amount of women uncomfortable.

You can respect their wishes or not respect their wishes. Personally, I'm immature enough to enjoy penis jokes, but mature enough to respect that not every woman wants to hear one from men she doesn't know.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#565

Post by georgeorwell »

ericabiz wrote: post #552
georgeorwell wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you just threw up two different straw (wo)men here. It's not sexist to make jokes about the word "dongle" sounding like "dong". They sound pretty similar. It's not very funny unless you're bored stiff or in grade five, but nevertheless it's pretty harmless joke material, and it isn't sexism. The examples you gave are sexism. If the two guys at PyCon had directed the jokes at Adria while also excluding…

> "It's not sexist to make jokes about the word 'dongle' sounding like 'dong'." Is it sexist, or isn't it? You can find interesting arguments both ways. Your opinion is that it's not sexist. My opinion is that it depends on context. From what I can tell, in this context, it was probably not meant to be sexist. > "The examples you gave are sexism." Are they? I think they are, which is why I brought them up here. You a…

I'm not clear that you understand what a straw man is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

People are saying that what the two guys did was not sexist and that Adria's response was inappropriate. So, debate that, rather than introduce other examples. Whether or not your other examples are sexist has nothing to do with whether or not the dongle jokes were sexist, but they were straw men in the context of your original comment. In particular, Adria's response does not somehow become appropriate because you experienced or heard about some other bad things, or because people were vicious to her in the aftermath (they were). All that this does is muddy the water and polarize people.

If you want to have a general wide-open debate on sexism at technology conferences, I guess that's what you'll have, but it will never be as effective as addressing specific issues.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#566

Post by Steuard »

Domenic_S wrote: post #481
Steuard wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not sexist to make a jokes about the word "dongle" sounding like "dong". They sound pretty similar. It's not very funny unless you're bored stiff or in grade five, but nevertheless it's pretty harmless joke material, and it isn't sexism." I really have to disagree. Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". Want proof? Watch how fast a group of guys making those jokes suddenly cl…

> Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". And? Guys partaking in guy culture, somebody stop the presses. > So when guys at a conference routinely make dick jokes in public, that contributes to a sense that the conference is a male space. So it's like a turd in a punchbowl then? Two dudes make a dick joke and now the whole conference is a male space? I would agree with you if it was…

Do you really want to base your analysis on the assumption that that this was the only dick joke anyone made in a public space at this conference? I sure wouldn't take that bet.

The reason this sort of thing is an issue is that there are countless little signals like this in the tech community all the time, and for a lot of women they add up to a significant feeling of "You're an outsider here." It doesn't need to be officially sponsored by the conference organizers to be very real.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#567

Post by mc32 »

cjbprime wrote: post #551
mc32 wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if we polled all conferences for all language that some attending population feel is off the table? Should lawyers plan to vote to ban all lawyer jokes, even if said by insiders? What about bankers' conferences, maybe have them keep attendees from asking pointed questions about bailouts and fraud, etc? I don't think people should be jocular and act like college fraternity members all their lives, but at the same…

> What I mean is, I prefer most conversations to be free of vulgarity and expletives; however, on occasion, I think those same offenses can be a relief --it shows me, "You know what, society is still organic and it has its blemishes." It's not all purified and true. Really disappointed in you for writing this -- as if my argument is that swearing, fun and R-rated movies should all be removed from society. I like thos…

I think we actually agree that there is a problem. Or should I say I agree with you that there is a problem. What I disagree is that one can, in effect, legislate the problem out. It's like making the kkk illegal, or making racial epithets illegal.

It's not going to get rid of racism and the associated problems. When I was young I used to think 'why not make all these words illegal, that should make half the problem go away?' I now realize I was unbelievably naive. It's not so easy as that. These problems are things which take decades if not centuries to nullify. And I believe the best way is through a kind of indoctrination which starts with early education and pervades through higher ed. Sure, a few people will rebel, but that should be in the very small minority.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#568

Post by shardling »

katbyte wrote: post #526
king_jester wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, she said she as a black woman cannot be racist towards white people. On an individual level, sure she could be racist towards a white person. However, the social power imbalance is way against her in almost every way compared to white people with institutions enforcing racist actions and policies against black folks way more often and more severely.

That doesn't mean blacks cannot be racist against whites. Anyone can be racist or sexist no matter how oppressed they are.

Some people use different definitions of those words; and under those definitions, it is not true that anyone can be racist. When they talk about racism or sexism, they are talking about their manifestation in society, which is not an action one individual can take.

In this context, saying that something/someone is sexist or racist says nothing about intention, only the effect of the behavior or social structure. Further, if a behavior does not align with an existing power imbalance in society, it would not be considered x-ism; a black woman who discriminates against white men is not expressing and reinforcing an existing type of oppression, so that behavior would not be considered racist or sexist. (Remember, it's not about intentions, and it doesn't mean that the behavior is ok.)

If you think this sounds weird, please do still try to take some time to understand why this terminology arose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#569

Post by zem »

Someone wrote: post #158
paranoiacblack wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand what's wrong with this. This is quite literally the definition of racism in a sociological context: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Sociological . You're going to need to disprove a lot of social science before you tackle this definition.

"Blacks cannot be racist against whites" does not logically follow from "racism can only come from the oppressor who has the power". The group in power can be black, as, for example, more or less is the case in the current South Africa, and may be the case in some subcultures (rappers? Basketball players? Some prisons?)

adria seems to suffer from deep-seated us-centricity; witness her insistence that "lynching" was a racially-loaded term applied to black people.
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