Earlier quoted context omitted.
Speed doesn’t matter.
it does if you are writing the checks, it doesn’t if you cashing the checks
I genuinely doubt it. Amdahl’s law will always reign supreme.
AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
561–570 of 713 posts
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#562It’s difficult to have spent a long time learning something, only for that thing to suddenly become accessible to anyone; something that was once scarce and valuable is now abundant and cheap. There are still machinists doing things by hand, but for real production or prototyping, most will now use a 5-axis CNC machine. It still requires an operator of sorts, but much of the work that once required skilled manual mac…
> it will be something managed and controlled by the LLM, written in a way optimised for itself, not for you or I.
At that point we might as well invent an LLM-optimized language to use.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#563Earlier quoted context omitted.
The important part of the professional certification like PE or MD is the liability that comes with it, which means that the professional has a lot more agency. A construction firm or hospital can't really force their professionals to do anything because the consequence is criminal prosecution (and a lot of legal liability for the employer). Bring a software engineer into a courtroom as an expert witness, and the jur…
I have been a professional software developer for decades and worked in several roles where quality and security were at a premium but I have no idea what you mean by WASP. And yet you described it as "barebones" - an interesting illustration of the problem here. Real engineers have many years seeing the hard way what actually works. In software we don't have that kind of consistency and shared understanding of how t…
In my experience, good software engineers are often better "engineers" than those working in more physical disciplines, because they get a lot more practice. But traditional engineers have a far better culture when it comes to testing and validation. Since the cycle time is longer, and the cost of mistakes is higher, analysis and testing are generally baked in from the beginning. In software, it's easier to skip that stuff. But software engineers who do get indoctrinated into that culture learn most of the same lessons that traditional engineers do (i.e. how can a component be tested and maintained? what makes for a good design?) and the speed of development means they get more exposure to those types of challenges in general.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#564Earlier quoted context omitted.
I mean, the obvious thing is that the "learn to code quick, code bootcamps!" drive was driven by connected people who were, as they are now, attempting to drive down the cost of software development. Management types really really really loathe software developers for making good money, and have spent decades now jumping at any advertisement that suggests it can undercut the salary of your current crop of engineers.…
> Management types really really really loathe software developers for making good money Of course. I bet you loathe having to spend $70,000 to buy a nice car, too! > Capitalism simply wants to eliminate any and every cost by definition You could look up what life was like under Soviet communism. Me, I prefer capitalism.
The irony is that Soviets are famous for falling behind in computing because their 5 year plans failed to appreciate the importance.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#565Earlier quoted context omitted.
The actual issue is not the "bad" engineers but the bad organization. While people are allowed to push and merge whatever crap is generated there is no point to do otherwise. Even if you do care about performance, "good" code your teammates don't and close more tickets and are better by many metrics. If you are closing one ticket per week with "good" code but your teammate does three with "bad" code - it's actually y…
It means the company is measuring the wrong thing. I would much rather have someone on my team who ships less but whose work I can trust than someone much faster whose changes leave me wondering what problems we’re going to discover later. And when production breaks (and it will), I need the person who made the change to actually understand it well enough to help fix it, instead of showing up with no idea what is goi…
>>I would much rather have someone on my team who ships less but whose work I can trust
Me too, but it is not what happening across the industry. Instead they are pushing for more LLM usage as well as more features. And faster, faster!
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#566Between AI and competing against the world with H-1B, it's really never been harder to get an entry or mid-level software engineering job. Which means our pipeline to senior engineer is completely broken.
There are 100K H1-Bs a year and 4 million grads a year in the US. Anyone who thinks H1-Bs are actually contributing to their inability to find a job is a moron.
No it is true. But H1B is only a portion of it. OPT is unlimited and gives the employer the incentive of not paying FICA tax. Plus OPT candidates are willing to accept a fraction of the salary in the hopes that they can convert to H1B. Plus there are several other visa types being abused H4 EAD, CPT, O1.
On top of all that the commonplace practices of ethnic nepotism and hiring kickbacks.
I think many engineers are extremely naive about what is going on in the industry, which is why these abuses only continue to increase.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#567Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with making programming a regulated profession is who gets to define the regulations. You are probably imagining that it would be expert developers with a track record of success. I would bet on it being the people who write lots of blog posts and books about programming and give lots of conference keynotes - whether or not those people have any evidence base to support their advocated policies or any per…
> You are probably imagining that it would be expert developers with a track record of success. I'll admit I am unsure how such individuals would be chosen. I imagine it would be prudent to learn what processes are used by other licensed professions when choosing such individuals. > who write lots of blog posts and books about programming and give lots of conference keynotes I do not think people who write blog posts…
> I'll admit I am unsure how such individuals would be chosen. I imagine it would be prudent to learn what processes are used by other licensed professions when choosing such individuals.
Licensing organizations disproportionately attract people who enjoy "administrating" over "doing."
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#568Earlier quoted context omitted.
The whole "learn to code" and software bootcamp craze always baffled me. Like what other profession markets themselves as "Hey, our job is so easy that any schmuck off the street can enter the career with 4 months of training." Practically every other job I can think of at a similar salary level has entrance requirements (e.g. grad school admissions exams), extensive and expensive training, a lengthy apprenticeship p…
I've said "code was always the easy part" recently so I should probably explain where I'm coming from. I think the practice of software engineering includes that "understanding of the relationship between code, business, people and teams" you mention, which essentially boils down to the ability to skillfully design a system - regardless of whether it's a big cloud-based web application or a tiny cli tool for use with…
> To me, the difficult parts of software engineering are in the design. That's where you're defining the problem you're trying to solve, picking what technology to build upon, what kind of architecture you're planning on implementing, ruling out what does/doesn't make sense, taking input from stakeholders, and finding the balance between price and performance.
This is exactly why I became a PM [1]. I wanted to do "harder" things that had bigger scope than I could do as "just an engineer", and the kind of roles that offer that scope within engineering end up being thin on the ground. Unfortunately, what I've generally found is that being a technical PM is a good way to have people try to knife you constantly. Most PMs are technically illiterate MBA types, and carry a deep grudge against anyone who gives the technology any consideration. They're also good at politics, and want you to die. On the other side of the coin, because most PMs are technically illiterate, engineers often instinctively reject you like a tumor. To overcome this, you need to appeal to the technology, which puts more of a target on your back from the other PMs...
Anyway, my point is that this is all very sad, because you're describing is exactly what a PM does -- but with technical competence. And because of the way the industry is structured, the people who can do that either get shuffled into people management, or reach a rapid career ceiling when so-called "architecture" roles aren't available.
There's this pervasive myth that you cannot be good at technology while also prioritizing the business needs, but usually what this really means is that the "business types" bias in one direction exclusively, and treat the technology as the enemy. It's why so many companies are AI-maxxing now -- the promise of replacing the expensive nerds is the eternal flame for the MBA.
[1] well, that, plus after being a founder, people were suddenly willing to hire me to be a PM...
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#569Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Such test filter out the obvious frauds. if you need garbage like leetcode to filter out "obvious frauds" you got a whole lot of problems in your company/team/...
A colleague of mine came to me for advice. He wanted one of those high dollar jobs at a well-known MegaCorp. He knew a leetcode test was used by them. I suggested that his top priority was to study the leetcode books for the next 3 weeks. I told him those three weeks would be the best ROI he'd ever make. He did so. He aced the test. He got the job with a huge offer. He agreed that the ROI was out of the park! P.S. I'…
> He did so. He aced the test. He got the job with a huge offer. He agreed that the ROI was out of the park!
...and everybody clapped?
I have news for you: passing an online leetcode is now so easy that an AI can do it. If you think you're catching the cheaters, you're just wrong.
Leetcode was always a stupid test of competence, but it was cheap and it had a high true-negative rate, which filtered the riff-raff. That isn't true anymore.
Re: AI is removing the middle class of software engineering?
#570Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is me to a tee. I think I'm a fairly good software engineer, and I loved building software and mentoring more junior engineers who I thought had both ability and a good attitude. I also think I was a pretty pragmatic engineer (I was not an "architecture astronaut"), but I did enjoy the craft of getting into the nitty gritty details of software. The past 5-10 years or so saw me pretty beaten down though with soft…
In retrospect, the golden age was the pre-internet era. Some rose-colored glasses maybe, but as I remember it: Paying for software was the norm, so it was more clear what the "product" was, and software writers had a direct incentive to write better software. Updates could not be pushed out so you had to be pretty sure your code worked before you shipped it. Having to ship physical media to all your customers for a b…
In thinking about it more, I think you're totally correct.
For the vast part of my career I worked for good companies that I thought were comparatively very well managed, and I was especially fortunate that overall I think I had excellent bosses. But the reality of the Internet age and CICD in particular is that speed is much more important than quality. I don't even really disagree with the business imperative of "ship, ship, ship", but for people who really value their craft, it can be discouraging shipping stuff you know is always kinda half baked. I was definitely not a "gold plater" either, and time pressure was certainly a thing pre-Internet, but as you say mistakes were a lot more expensive then so there was more business rationale to ensure quality before a release.