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“Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

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Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#561

Post by highmastdon »

The things mentioned in the post aren’t code. That’s why code isn’t the hard part. Writing the algorithm to x y or z isn’t the hard part. Knowing that the algorithm is needed, it’s beneficial, there’s no alternative and the optimization isn’t in vein, that’s the hard part.

Structure, design patterns, software architecture, systems engineering, optimization (not of the LoC but the system), data accessibility (in structure as in implementation like indexes etc)... those are the hard ones that require engineers to design and implement properly.

And that’s only going to be more as it’s not the 20 medior SWEs that throw together a full stack application in two days but the untangling of AI slop as the architecture wasn’t built for hundreds of concurrent users

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#562

Post by Valakas_ »

woopah wrote: post #147
bob1029 wrote: post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

I think people also have a natural tendency to assume that the amount you are paid is correlated to how difficult the job is, which isn't quite true. The market value of a role has a lot of additional factors besides how intrinsically difficult the actual job is such as supply and demand and the funding source. Programmers may have been able to demand high salaries partially because the explosion in demand came faste…

This is the correct answer. Of all the engineering fields, SWE is by far the one with highest salary compared to how difficult it is. SWE lucked out on the fact that we have been going through a technological revolution, and naturally the demand for the people who work in this field is huge. Hence the pay. In my university SWE bachelors + masters degree has been seen as the easiest one as far as i can remember. Mechanical, bio, aerospace and electrical as the most difficult.

It's always been funny to see the arrogance of some SWE who think that since they're the highest paid, they are also the most difficult and most important jobs, while it has zero to do with either of these two. Just luck of supply/demand. Otherwise mathematicians and physics would be sitting at the top with the highest paid careers and they... are not even close to that.

For this reason I don't really feel sorry for AI replacing programmers/SWE, at least the ones that were arrogant enough to think in the way i explained.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#563

Post by kcexn »

pjmlp wrote: post #472
yallpendantools wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[MIGHT HAVE INACCURATE IMPLICATIONS BUT PRESERVED FOR POSTERITY:] In Germany I don't think that counts. "Software Engineering" as a title isn't regulated (as kcexn is asking for). The German term "Softwareentwickler" more literally translates to "Software Developer " (as opposed to "Ingenieur") but I don't see companies having problems translating that in job posts and even contracts to "Software Engineer". I've neve…

Well, I have been well served by I.G. Metal, by working in industries they also covered. Also I have yet to meet anyone doing agency work, that started as Azubi, Quereinsteiger, BWL,... and would sign any document or call themselves Engineers, like it is so very common in US out of a plain bootcamp.

I don't think Software Engineers in the US would sign any documents that expose them to legal liability as a professional engineer either.

It's still not clear to me from this discussion whether the term "Software Engineer" is legally protected in Germany (or any other European country) or if it's just a cultural convention.

The distinction is basically, if a software developer started a consultancy developing custom software solutions and called the company XY Software Engineering, would they be penalized for false advertising if they didn't have professional engineering qualifications?

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#564

Post by kcexn »

pjmlp wrote: post #467
kcexn wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In which countries are Software Engineers not allowed to call themselves engineers unless they are professionally qualified engineers?

In many, I am at least aware of Portugal, Germany and Canada. https://www.lexpoint.pt/Default.aspx?PageId=128&ContentId=60... https://www.vdi.de/news/detail/wer-darf-sich-ingenieur-oder-... https://engineerscanada.ca/become-an-engineer/use-of-profess... You can call yourself engineer if you feel like it, however in case it comes to some court case due to liabilities and such, there might be some issues coming up with…

If you can call yourself an Engineer if you feel like it, then it's not a protected title.

"Doctor", is for instance a protected title. You can not advertise yourself or your services as a doctor unless you're a qualified and practicing medical professional. I believe some kinds of legal practices are the same.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#565

Post by kcexn »

rockemsockem wrote: post #538
burgerzzz wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each unit of work in any given feature of a Web app has been implemented 500 times yesterday alone, and nearly each time exactly the same way. I mean that’s what programming basically is right? I’m surprised these patterns that are repeated so often by developers could have been/still be automated away even without AI/LLMs.

One thing I wonder about is how applicable your statement about web apps is to something like lamps or lighting generally. How many electrical engineers have re-designed a circuit that turns on/off a light? Are EEs who wind up doing mundane engineering like this still engineers?

You don't need to be an "Electrical Engineer" to do simple design work like this.

Professional Engineers are qualified to take on more liability than just creating a design. So you don't need an Engineer to design a product, but (depending on jurisdiction) you will need an engineer to certify that your product won't hurt or kill people.

If you do a lot of design work, then you may want to hire a Professional Engineer in-house so that your company has more confidence that they will produce compliant designs with fewer iterations.

Engineers are often the best people to work with if you need to do things that are done infrequently since theoretically, they're trained in the prerequisite first principles so they can make judgments that are rooted in rigorous analysis in addition to their practical experience.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#566

Post by kcexn »

rockemsockem wrote: post #548
vel0city wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"electrical engineers" aren't usually the ones making a lamp though. If you're paying EE wages to add a light switch to an Edison socket you're massively overpaying.

Lots of things have lights on them though. I'm thinking every status light on every piece of hardware. Edit: also, I'm not exactly filled with knowledge on new lamp design/construction, but I have seen startups/kickstarters that make new lamps that seem like redesigns from the ground up.

Most hardware tinkerers are not EE's. But will rely on EE's to certify that their electronics are safe.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#567

Post by vaylian »

bluegatty wrote: post #321
bob1029 wrote: post #9

> If coding is easy, how come programmers were in high demand, and have demanded large salaries for years (even before ZIRP)? Because programmers have generally been forced to wear additional, invisible hats that are essential to making the code happen in the first place. Writing code is not hard. Writing correct code is. Knowing what is correct in a setting with paying customers generally involves interacting with t…

"wear additional, invisible hats " No ... those are not invisible hats ... those are the real hats . Software is 'Knowledge Distillation' the code is the hieroglyphic artifacts. Engineers Engineer, Scribes Scribe. Just so happens developers do their own scribing.

They are real invisible hats. Those hats are invisible to outsiders, who don't understand that programmers do much more than just entering code on a computer.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#568

Post by geon »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #459
geon wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does not everyone understand this? It's why waterfall development never worked.

Waterfall works as well as the person implementing it, which is to say it is a human process and vulnerable to typical human flaws. I have used waterfall for decades to ship millions of dollars worth of software. If you don't want it to work it won't work.

You actually planned everything in advance, and didn't have to go back and correct mistakes?

Because if you ever go back a step, it is no longer the waterfall model, but an iterative process.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#569

Post by menaerus »

gosolozero wrote: post #163
prinny_ wrote: post #72

I believe there are some programming jobs in which the code is absolutely the easier part. Not all of us work in signal processing, integrated systems or have to push upstream to Linux kernel because the company we work for really needs a memory allocation optimization for its data centers. Navigating customer requirements and building something that satisfies both market's needs and company strategy can be an incred…

Yes, I resonate with this and the article above. I think 80% of a SWE's job is to communicate with the XFN partners (either gathering requirements, pushing back, managing up, collaborations, etc) and then plan out the actual coding (gather code pointers, look at past code, plan architecture, talk to the team). The last 10% is the coding. And then the other 10% is the maintenance of that and past code (which honestly…

I have been writing code professionally for almost 20 years, hard or at least non trivial problems what many would consider, and my job description does not resemble the tiniest of what you're describing. Coding _is_ difficult and dedicating only 10% of your time for that task will leave you very quickly without the job. Most of the time not only that you spend close to 100% of the time doing the coding part but even more than 100%. Some problems and domains are just difficult and not trivial to the part you can automate them. With the age of AI this may be changing though.

Re: “Code was never the hard part” is an insult to all programmers

#570

Post by menaerus »

halsafar wrote: post #494
socratic_weeb wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This take is foolish and will always be foolish. Coding was mever easy in ANY domain (not just low level stuff) and the fact that we built syntax highlighting, high-level languages, auto-conplete, static analysis, debuggers, etc., in order to make it easier is the proof.

Take a step into the business side of software. Code is definitely not the hard part. You wouldn't say wood is hard part (heh) of wood working. It is planning and architecting. When to use the right tools. Just because a ruler has hash marks that doesn't mean measuring is hard it means the ruler doesn't work without it.

What type of software have you been writing before entering the business side of software and for how long?
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