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What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

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Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#561

Any social organization needs to carefully consider their inclusion-exclusion curve with intentionality. I think a lot of people might balk at the word "inclusivity" today, but StackExchange had ridiculously high barriers to participation, making it inclusive to the long-time users on the site, but exclusive to the newbie participants who found themselves blocked for asking questions. They slowly killed the site in t…

> StackOverflow management alienated those users, too, by shoving AI down their throats in every facet of the site. Actually, I thought they outright forbade AI answers? I don't know where else AI might have come in -- having an AI look for related answers instead of making users use the primitive search (for which almost everyone always used google instead) might have been a good idea. Probably wouldn't have been en…

The community arrived at, drafted and enforce policy forbidding AI-generated content; this usually meant answers because that was the obvious use case for LLMs.

(We were getting absolutely flooded from day 1 with really obviously LLM-generated crap, which represented absolutely zero value add over the OP going to chatgpt dot com and copy-pasting the question there instead. Often this came from users who came back to the site after years of hiatus, who had an established track record in previous answers of being barely able to communicate in English at all; and then they would come to the meta site and insist that they hadn't used an LLM, apparently completely unable to understand how blatantly obvious they were being about it.)

The company repeatedly attempt to force shitty AI-powered features on the community, and also tried to intervene with enforcement of that policy, complaining that false positives would be too damaging. These features got roundly rejected again and again, but this was ignored. Again, much of this represented zero value-add over going to chatgpt dot com directly. Some examples:

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/425162

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/425766

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/425081

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/438910

The intervention against moderator enforcement of policy (an actual moderator action! Ordinary community members can't just delete an answer for being LLM-generated, although they do take almost all the other actions people complain about offsite) got so bad that it led to an actual strike.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#562
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> aquire comment points to be able to answer I thought it was the opposite, you need answer points in order to comment (which resulted in people using answers as comments because they had no other option).

The rules changed, a lot. You created an account one day and the only things you could do were commenting and asking questions; you created it some other day and the only things you could do were asking and answering questions; some other day the only thing you could do was asking questions. Any day you signed up, asking any question first was a sure way to be downvoted bellow the threshold that would ban you from th…

> The rules changed, a lot.

No, they didn't. I joined in late 2010 to post a question, and posted multiple answers within an hour of that. As far as I can research, it has always been like that.

50 reputation is required to comment, except under your own questions (which is meant to facilitate figuring out what's wrong with a problematic question, so that it can be fixed).

Nobody ever got "banned from the site" for asking questions. There are algorithms that implement rate limits on questions and answers, some of which are oppressive (the so-called "Q-ban" limits you to one question per 6 months; and the insiders on meta who are doing all the question closing and downvoting that everyone objects to all hate it and have complained many times). There is in fact no proper facility for banning users available to moderators: they can only "destroy" accounts that were used by spammers or suspend ordinary users for increasing lengths of time (in practice, bans are implemented by suspending for 99999 days, which is about 273 years). These algorithms kick in because of a pattern; I have never been shown evidence of the Q-ban kicking in because of a single question (the details are internal to the company; even actual moderators don't and can't know) and the initial rate limits are honestly pretty gentle (unless you imagine that you're entitled to prompt answers; but you're supposed to get those by searching). Note that self-deleting poorly-received questions is generally believed not to help with this. (The goal was to prevent people from making lazy attempts at asking questions and then disclaiming any interest in fixing them; I think this was a misstep, as people should be lauded for coming to an understanding about how the site works, and for deleting things that aren't actually fixable.)

Important references:

https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/164899 ("the complete rate-limiting guide")

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/271542 (rate-limit implementation)

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/254262 (Q-ban warning)

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/255583 (Q-ban implementation)

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of duplicate closures use already answered questions as duplicates. So ideally that question should have answers that apply to the new question as well. In my observation this is usually the case, though the answer might be more generic. I have also seen bad duplicate closures that weren't actually exact duplicates. But people talk like this is the only kind of duplicate closure that actually happen…

> So ideally that question should have answers that apply to the new question as well. The point is who decides. If you ask a question and I flag it as a dupe, I might think the answers on the other question apply to yours, but only you know whether they solved your problem or not. > I've no idea if the rate of bad duplicates is so much higher than I observed, Sure, and neither does SO! They didn't even measure it. T…

> The point is who decides. If you ask a question and I flag it as a dupe, I might think the answers on the other question apply to yours, but only you know whether they solved your problem or not.

The site is not about solving your problem. The site is about answering your question.

By policy, whether a question is a duplicate depends on whether answers at the target answer the question that is actually present in the "question" post. The details required to adapt that Q&A to the originally motivating situation are irrelevant.

In fact, there doesn't need to be an originally motivating situation in order to ask a valid question.

In fact, you don't actually need to know an answer in order to ask a valid question. It is perfectly acceptable, and even encouraged, to ask a question you know how to answer already, and provide the answer. (But both question and answer must meet standards, which are independent of who is asking and who is answering.)

> Sure, and neither does SO! They didn't even measure it.

This fundamentally can't be measured. Especially not when the claim of "bad duplicate" usually comes from people who are demonstrably not interested in what the policy is.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#564
post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the implication that thousands of people, from a broad spectrum, who all had the same negative experiences with what was obviously a serious endemic problem with the site, all just needed to understand the policy better. That was clearly the issue.

If thousands of Americans travelled to a tiny country where cars drive on the left, and all tried to drive on the right as they do at home, would that make the country in the wrong? Would it be a "serious endemic problem" with the country?

[deleted]

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#565

When an ecological shoes company pivot to AI, I wonder why StackOverflow executives don't pilot for AI now.

They have been. Very aggressively. The community hates it. Their attempts have been ham-handed and offer zero value added over putting your question into chatgpt dot com instead of the SO submission form; but they would be hated anyway.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#567

One thing I wonder, if you look at the comments here it is clear the moderation and the general hostility of the site was a big reason why a lot of people left or didn't engage with it. Yet, I can't recall SO doing anything about this, and its confusing to me why. Was it: a) They don't acknowledge this was a problem. b) They are unwilling to tackle this problem. c) They are unable to tackle this problem. I'd love to…

> They don't acknowledge this was a problem.

Most people who came to SO wanted the site to be something it fundamentally wasn't supposed to be; that it in fact specifically existed not to be, to provide an alternative, because the thing that everyone wants (a discussion forum) is actually bad.

When the site was launched, lots of people seemed to agree with Atwood and Spolsky that discussion forums are bad and that they knew better. But in the long run, this still proved to be a minority opinion, by a long shot.

In short, I don't acknowledge that it was a problem because it wasn't. It was expected and okay that lots of people didn't want to engage with the format. The format was not for them. The purpose of the format was to produce an artifact that would benefit them indirectly, for free, by improving Google search results (until Google fucked it up).

But the site (the platform itself, and the people implementing it; not the community) fucked up by failing to recognize that most people really do want a fundamentally unproductive, unfocused social environment (and a help desk!) after all.

More importantly, it fucked up by presenting a UI that misleads people into thinking they could have that experience (post a question and there's space for answers under it; obviously that means that people are answering directly for your benefit and not anyone else! and of course we can go back and forth about this, and they'll help me solve my problem! and there are votes, like Reddit!)

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#568
post #550

One thing I wonder, if you look at the comments here it is clear the moderation and the general hostility of the site was a big reason why a lot of people left or didn't engage with it. Yet, I can't recall SO doing anything about this, and its confusing to me why. Was it: a) They don't acknowledge this was a problem. b) They are unwilling to tackle this problem. c) They are unable to tackle this problem. I'd love to…

In my opinion: a) they choose a certain very specific ideal as a target, but utterly failed to convey that to a majority of site visitors; b) their picked target and path visually and functionally matched by like 90% with a thing already existing for decades previously and very familiar to a majority of internet users - with a regular forum with sections and treads; c) they make fundamental errors even inside the sco…

Very well put. Except they didn't think they were "picking a forum format". Forums with that style of voting were still kinda rare at the time (Reddit was young at SO's date of creation) and the Q&A formatting was supposed to look intentionally different from a "thread", which is also way (at least in the original design) comments were de-emphasized, and moderation policy held that the large majority of comments could be deleted at any time.

Unfortunately, this design comes across to a lot of people as comments being threaded replies, and the "question" format as privileging the OP (which makes it that much worse when the system forces question closure to happen out in the open). And recent redesigns, by new ownership obsessed with "engagement" and profitability and apparent complete apathy towards the original goals, have thoroughly enshittified the original.

I also have no idea what you mean about

> for example apparently not taking into account that software with identical name can have different versions;

There were always separate tags for various minor versions of Python, for example, and they were commonly incorrectly applied to questions where the version was not relevant.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#569
post #9

SO did that all to themselves when they decided they didn't want a community to form and that only question and answers mattered. The moment something else allowed to have a better way to get your answers, there was no reason to go there, because there was no community. I still don't understand why anyone would go with that whole "no conversation please"

> SO did that all to themselves when they decided they didn't want a community to form SO did develop a community in a way, but it was primarily the gatekeepers and rule enforcers adopting positions of pseudo-power. They liked using the sites’ rules as a way to control conversations and downvote questions. Every internet community I’ve interacted with that builds up a lot of rules turns into this eventually. It becom…

I'm used to enjoying your comments here, but this is an unusually bad take, and frankly personally hurtful. None of this was ever about that kind of power or control, and hearing constant accusations to the contrary was one of the things that compounded the stress of curation for me.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#570
post #71
post #9

SO did that all to themselves when they decided they didn't want a community to form and that only question and answers mattered. The moment something else allowed to have a better way to get your answers, there was no reason to go there, because there was no community. I still don't understand why anyone would go with that whole "no conversation please"

Yeah, SO's downfall started looong ago. The community was frankly horribly managed, and its strict "no remotely duplicate-esque questions ever" policy meant that answers to common questions just got more and more outdated as time went on. It's still common to search for something, find an SO thread, and find that the only answers are from 2013. The world has changed since 2013, answers in 2026 would be different, but…

> and its strict "no remotely duplicate-esque questions ever" policy meant that answers to common questions just got more and more outdated as time went on.

No; answers got outdated because of people not doing what they were supposed to do, which is: post a new answer on the old question. (Assuming that the old answers actually are outdated. It happens all the time that decade-old answers are still perfectly relevant, or even still represent the Right Way to Do It(TM).)

Somehow, people never wanted to do that when it actually mattered, but would constantly post new, repetitive, low-quality answers on popular old questions (often re-combining multiple old answers) even though the solutions hadn't actually become outdated, simply because they were popular questions and they hoped to gain visibility from it (whether from reputation, or because user profile pages had a "number of users reached" metric which literally just sums the view counts of the pages where you have a question or answer, including views that occurred before your post).

That said, there are plenty of cases where an old question got closed as a duplicate of a newer question: either because it went unnoticed before, or because of deliberate action to reverse the direction of closure, with the goal of pointing future viewers to the best possible Q&A. This was explicitly in accordance with policy: see e.g. https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/404535 , https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/251938 , https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/423085 . As a general rule, policy is "timeless": the timestamp on a post is not relevant to determining the right thing to do with it.

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