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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#561

Post by ildon »

herewulf wrote: post #547
drnick1 wrote: post #137

The point of the Framework is to run Linux, and not to be part of Apple's ecosystem. I don't want my computer to update itself without my permission, report telemetry to Apple, upload anything to any "cloud" or request that I log into something. If you don't think this is a big deal, wait until an age or identity verification law is passed somewhere, and Apple will enforce it against your will, on the computer that y…

Absolutely, and this is also a big deal for longevity of your purchase. I have an iMac from 2012 and it's a beautiful piece of reliable hardware, with a beautiful screen. However, the software is stuck on some version of macOS from years ago and so more and more applications are refusing to install. It's on life support with Firefox ESR and MacPorts (just recently — was on Homebrew). And it works fine for browsing an…

While I don't dispute that Apple might or might not exploit its users via software, I believe some more credit is due to a company that can produce a piece of hardware like a personal computer that runs so smoothly after 14 years that its owner complains that more software updates should still be shipped to the device. I do not know of any other device that I could but as a consumer that would last that long. The framework laptops might be an exception, but they most definitely still need to prove it.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#562

Post by docjay »

dbgobrrr wrote: post #540

I regularly follow Jeff Geerling's blog and I value his opinion (usually), and I understand his points - he does make very good points in this article. However, the conclusion really irked me: > As I mention in my video, the Framework 12 isn't a bad laptop, it's just a bad value, especially in comparison to the Neo. Saying it is bad *value* is off the mark completely. There is, unless you are willing to use MacOS (wh…

What you’re saying is valid, but it doesn’t take away from the “bad value” statement. Jeff was speaking value for money, you’re talking subjective utility value. Reviews cannot, and should not even try, to include that in their assessment. Sure, mention the limitation (and he did), but to assign a value to it for comparison is called “personal bias” and it’s no different than saying “it’s twice the hardware for half the price, but gloss black is a boring color, so 1 star.” Reviewers should always state value as “dollars per pound” and $1 for 10lbs is a better value than $1 for 5lbs; that you personally can’t fit 10lbs in your vault doesn’t change the assessment.

The real problem is that “value” is an ambiguous word, so everyone is right and wrong while talking about the same thing entirely differently. Yeesh.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#563

Post by vladvasiliu »

andybp85 wrote: post #538
vladvasiliu wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Until you need to repair something or change some hardware How often does this happen, though? I have a 2013 MBP that still works perfectly. And I'm not even talking about the screen, which is ridiculously better than most new pc laptops. And then, of course, there's the touchpad, which, for some reason, is still unmatched in pc land. It has 512 GB of SSD and 16 of RAM. This is basically what the new "upgraded" PCs…

in my day job doing enterprise web apps at a mac shop 16G became unusable for the engineers 3-5 yeas ago. i managed to weasel into them getting me a 64G M1 Pro in 2022 (now they won't buy us any higher than 32G). i'll probably still be using this thing in six years! to be fair, given the choice between a decade-old macbook and basically any current windows box with same specs, i'd take the macbook every time. but, if…

Indeed. I have an M1 Pro from work, but I honestly can't stand macOS anymore. The machine itself is great, especially the touchpad. And I love the aluminum body. But I hate that empty window chrome eats up half the screen.

But now I'm typing this on a Lenovo P14 something-or-other, under Linux (I run Arch, by the way), and it's an all-around nicer experience than the Mac. The touchpad is somewhat inferior, but good enough. And the screen is actually better: it has a slightly higher resolution, but, most importantly, it's matte. It's not as bright as the Mac, but it's bright enough that I rarely set it above 20-30%. The machine is overall very snappy and quiet, but this is probably more due to my DE not going crazy with animations.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#564

Post by insane_dreamer »

sfjailbird wrote: post #539
whimblepop wrote: post #83

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

It's funny how Apple has come full circle. Back in the 90s, when they were in deep crisis (before the second coming of Jobs), it was almost conventional wisdom that they should just stop selling hardware, and focus on their superior software. And here we are today when a lot of people lust for the hardware, but just can't deal with MacOS.

I switch between Linux and MacOS on a daily basis, and have been running Linux since Ubuntu Warty Warthog, and I don't get why people don't like MacOS. It's a fine OS and in some ways superior to Linux. And the Mac hardware is second to none. Power management alone is much better than Linux.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#565

Post by mannanj »

regexorcist wrote: post #413
whimblepop wrote: post #83

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

I'm constantly surprised by just how bad macOS is as a Linux user. I currently have to deal with it sometimes as I run my local LLM server on it and it's painful. That said the hardware is great, I run Asahi on another M1 MBP and Linux makes it the best laptop I've ever used.

Is it possible to use M1's efficiency on Linux, i.e. is battery life comparable for you on Linux vs Mac?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#566

Post by ksec »

robspairpears wrote: post #87

Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases. So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of m…

> repairability

I would actually rate Neo having higher repairability. It is simply much better design and built even from a repair point of view. Speaker, Keyboard and Battery are the most common thing for repairing. It is only RAM and SSD that is better, but that is a different set of trade offs with performance and battery usage compromise.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#567

Post by rjrjrjrj »

okasaki wrote: post #558
rjrjrjrj wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have an iMac from 2012 > Well, I have a Framework 13 also, running Linux, and despite the hardware being from 2022 Please be sure to add a comment in 2036 on how your Framework/Linux experience worked out.

My thinkpad x61 from 2007 runs the latest Ubuntu and software edit: and has the same amount of ram as the mac neo.

1024x768 low-dpi display, Core 2 Duo, etc

"Runs" doing some lifting here.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#568

Post by bigyabai »

ksec wrote: post #566
robspairpears wrote: post #87

Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases. So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of m…

> repairability I would actually rate Neo having higher repairability. It is simply much better design and built even from a repair point of view. Speaker, Keyboard and Battery are the most common thing for repairing. It is only RAM and SSD that is better, but that is a different set of trade offs with performance and battery usage compromise.

> Speaker, Keyboard and Battery are the most common thing for repairing

All of which are famously nightmarish repairs on Macbooks, and line-replacable on Frameworks.

I think you're alone in this regard, I'd trust the Framework 8 days out of the week.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#569

Post by dinosaurdynasty »

fouc wrote: post #513

> I think Framework's in a hard place with the Framework 12. Because it's an odd dimension, and because they wanted a full 360° hinge for tablet mode, they had to compromise on the display. Seems a bit weird that framework went with a 360 hinge w/ sub-par display & sub-par stylus. I wonder if there's any demand for that and what's the use case?

I bought one because as far as I could find it is basically one of two 2-in-1's on the market that officially support Linux. (It replaced an old Android tablet and one of the original FW13's, both of which were getting old.)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#570

Post by bigyabai »

nozzlegear wrote: post #393
cloverich wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit disingenuous isn't it? Being unable to use any screenshot tool to capture an image on my laptop's browser was surprising to me, yes. Or are you arguing that Apple's implementations are no more restrictive than on any linux machine, so as such there is no case to be made for anything DRM related that a non-Apple device is superior (less limiting) in any way? Or... I suppose what is your actual argument he…

No I don't think it's disingenuous – indeed, it seemed to me that you were being disingenuous. My actual argument is that you're confusing Netflix's use of DRM for "Apple's implementation," without acknowledging that you'd have this exact same problem on Windows and Android devices. That Linux doesn't have it is just testament to the fact that hardly anyone, comparatively speaking, actually uses Linux as a daily driv…

No DRM on my machine. You must be holding it wrong?
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