Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

latimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 925 posts

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#561

Post by adolph »

bzmrgonz wrote: post #550

I think this is a Global phenomenon guys. In my humble opinion STEAM kids will need to be assigned 2 agents (quite honestly, I think every kid)... a digital brain and a digital tutor(s). We also have to revamp the entire curriculum, just hear me out; Why do we not memorize binary or assembly in computer science? Why do we allow calculators after a certain grade? Because we have abstracted large portions of the lower…

Memorizing binary would certainly revamp the A in STEAM.

  STEAM takes STEM education a step further by integrating “Arts” into the 
  acronym, encompassing language arts, drama, graphic design, visual arts, 
  music, and new media.
https://www.k12.com/stem-education/stem-vs-steam/

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#562

Post by bsder »

dnautics wrote: post #371
BobaFloutist wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charter schools deliver results the same way that private schools deliver results: selection bias. It's really easy to have good outcomes when you have the ability to curate your student population. And though charter schools are regulated to make it harder for them to curate their student population, the statistical evidence is pretty unequivocal: they serve different populations than public schools, and their "bett…

> Charter schools deliver results the same way that private schools deliver results: selection bias. Wasn't there a failing neighborhood school in LA that got turned into four charter schools that basically rescued the district, without removing any students?

The other LA (Louisiana) had lots of evidence to the contrary. If you force charter schools to participate in a lottery, they almost always come up worse than the public schools (there was a single exception).

We saw this happen in Houston. Many of the worst public schools suddenly "improved". It's a miracle! Oh, they did this by encouraging the lowest performers to drop out. Whoops.

And this is before we start talking about all the high GPA students who now all magically need IEPs (Individualized Education Plans) because it gets them an extra 50% of time on their tests. So, now you have your best students loudly (because these parents are active) soaking up lots of resources genuinely meant for your worst students.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#563

Post by happytoexplain »

delecti wrote: post #463
happytoexplain wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't read the article - do they explain why they think this is a "paradox"?

Expectation: removing standardized tests will give more opportunity to students who historically tend to do worse on those tests, like poor kids. Reality: removing standardized tests means that universities have to put more weight on the rest of the college application, such as extracurricular activities which are often expensive and thus disadvantage poor kids. Calling it a "paradox" is maybe a little hyperbolic, bu…

But this is relative, right? We're talking about SATs vs just relying on grades. Do poor kids do worse on SATs relative to how they do in their class grades, as compared to other kids? I kind of just figured poor kids do worse overall.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#564

Post by BigTTYGothGF »

valleyer wrote: post #218
xhkkffbf wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read up on Kobe Bryant or Bronny James.

Sure, those are some good counterexamples: both sons of professional athletes. And there are plenty of others. On the other hand, we have: Allen Iverson, Larry Bird, Shaquille O'Neal, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Vick, Bo Jackson, Jackie Robinson, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Fernando Valenzuela, Albert Pujols, Jim Thorpe, ... Oh, and LeBron James himself! So my view is that people of both rich and poor upbringings have a g…

> On the other hand

Perhaps I should have instead said "is that still happening at meaningful rates".

LeBron James is an interesting example. Per wiki: > Realizing that her son would be better off in a more stable family environment, Gloria allowed him to move in with the family of Frank Walker, a local youth football coach who introduced James to basketball when he was nine years old.

and then later he went to a fancy private high school (whose wikipedia page has many notable alumni, all athletes).

So while "from poverty" may be technically accurate, I don't know if I'd count it given all his opportunities later in childhood.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#565

Post by dirtikiti »

a34ta3t wrote: post #426
dirtikiti wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> School choice is bad because the only people who benefit from school choice are already wealthy - they can afford to transport their child to the school of their choice. So what? If "level the playing field" means my kid gets a sub standard education because you have to constantly lower the bar, I don't want to play your game. This stuff isn't new. Everyone understands the importance of education, and everyone und…

I love to see the true colors of this vile place when topics like this come up.

I know, personal responsibility is such a vile concept.

Everyone can be so much happier if they can blame everyone else and the system for everything bad in their life.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#566

Post by trunnell »

niwtsol wrote: post #460
trunnell wrote: post #435

I'm in the SF bay area w/ middle school and high school age kids. Between San Jose and San Francisco, 15%-30% of kids are in private school (it's 30% in SF where the public schools are extra dysfunctional). That's far above the California statewide average of 8% in private school. Among our peers, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of kids are doing advanced math outside of school, typically either Russian School of Math…

Could you elaborate on the reasoning they "strongly discourage math outside of school"? I'm genuinely curious how that would be a stance they take.

We've heard:

- It can make kids "overconfident when they see material they think they already know, so they end up not engaging."

- Some programs, particularly RSM, are criticized for valuing speed over depth. Current culture for K-8 math teachers is the opposite, they value depth over speed.

Left unsaid:

- It can make the teacher's job harder when the class has a wide span of abilities.

- Current teaching culture is skeptical of accelerating and/or skipping grades in math.

Notably, we've never heard English teachers be upset about a kid reading a book outside of school that's above grade level, or using advanced vocabulary in an essay. They tend to praise it.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#567

Post by mrgoldenbrown »

hedora wrote: post #309
nkrisc wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it’s not a real choice. As household income decreases, the odds the child goes to the nearest school (regardless of how good it is) increases. Are you providing after school child care options or transportation to their school of choice? If not, then it’s not a real choice and kids from lower income households will remain disadvantaged. That is to say, the results will be mostly identical except now public mo…

> except now public money will be going to private entities Right, now you've come full circle to the core of my proposal: If the charter schools are not producing students that perform well academically, then they do not get paid . Instead, the investor that funded the charter school takes a bath. This is capitalism at its finest: - The local government provides a competitive backstop. If you do worse than that floo…

In your vision how do you force the charters to accept a representative sample of students? Or do you not force them, and allow them to recruit the easy to educate kids and filter out the expensive kids?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#568

Post by tracker1 »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #535
ofjcihen wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just FYI I was dirt poor and from a crap neighborhood and qualified for and benefited from these AP classes. Not all kids who succeed only succeed because of their background.

I am from the same situation. I speak from experience: social mobility in public school is the exception. I would have done just fine without AP classes at all, as I am sure you would have. It's the kids who need help that benefit from school. AP classes exist to pad the resumes of rich kids and justify their being propelled into academic situations that should rightfully belong to others. Prove me wrong

AP classes allow those who are capable of working ahead of the general students to do so. It has zero to do with wealth. What others are hurt by you being able to take an AP class? Nobody is saying to remove remedial classes for those who have trouble keeping up.. but you shouldn't punish those capable of working ahead by putting everyone in the same class.

Your tirade sounds more like neo-communist garbage from someone who has never experienced communism. See the Yugoslavian comment in this thread for a counter example... where in actual communism, you emphatically push the capable ahead and allow success.

I don't have to prove you wrong as your assertions are wrong on their face and you have not said anything to backup your own assertions. I don't know how old you are, but you seem to have been dropped in the modern "equity" rabbit hole.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#569

Post by tracker1 »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #517
tracker1 wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said specifically "advance humanity" ... simple labor doesn't advance humanity. It's absolutely necessary, but it also doesn't require a college education. Advancing humanity is coming up with cures for disease, or inventing useful things. We manage to feed the world with a fraction of the labor it once took to do so. It wasn't the common laborer that came up with solutions that effectively eliminated food scarcity…

I'm not a big fan of the myth of progress, so your pleas are falling on deaf ears. I see no reason to prioritize the education of the rich in our public schools

You have provided no evidence that wealth is a driving factor in any given public school. For that matter, progress is not a myth.. again, we literally eliminated food scarcity through industrialization. That's not a myth. Try again.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#570

Post by tracker1 »

throwaway27448 wrote: post #520
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about money, you're the one who just thinks about money. Maybe, by your logic, if someone gave you $100 now, you'd become smarter and look wider... but probably not. Sorting into better highschools and worse ones, and better classes and worse was done even back in my times, in what used to be yugoslavia, with communism, red stars and a dictator. You want better kids to excell as much as they can, and you wan…

[flagged]

The post you are replying to is literally talking about actual communism.

Education in communism will leave anyone underperforming behind... You'll get shuffled of into a vocational school young and injected into the workforce early.

Do you really think communism expends extra effort on underperforming students? No they get shuffled off as soon as prudent.

Post reply on HN