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Online age verification is the hill to die on

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Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#561

Post by jenadine »

ryandrake wrote: post #473
iamnothere wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’d think that one could simply block sites that don’t have the age header set on child computers. This may block kids from hobbyist sites that don’t bother to set their headers as kid-friendly, but commercial sites would surely set their headers properly. Over time sending proper rating headers would become more normalized if they were in common use. This still isn’t perfect, as it creates an incentive for legisla…

An age header is not the answer. Why should a site have to decide what content is appropriate for a 18 year old and what content is not? Who is qualified to make that decision for every 17 year old in the world? Do they know my 17 year old? Do they know the rules in our home? What if I'm OK with my kid seeing sex-education stuff, but some lawyer at Wikipedia just decides to tag sex ed articles as 18+? Now I have a sh…

Right. Perhaps now, a parental filter could be an AI whose prompt is dictated by the parents, which can look at the contents before validating it.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#562

Post by Nursie »

EmbarrassedHelp wrote: post #492
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your lack of understanding why age verification does not constitute it being a conspiracy for another reason. There is a antiregulatory crowd that will invent any possible excuse to suggest tech companies shouldn't be accountable and we should just leave the Internet be. Those people make a lot of money exploiting everyone, as it happens, and they also pay for journalists to tell you that it's all about violating pri…

Any "verification" means unacceptable privacy violations. The best route is better parental controls, that are not enabled by default. Locking down the OS like ransomware until the user submits to age verification is the wrong approach, and what Apple did in the UK needs to be highly illegal.

> Any "verification" means unacceptable privacy violations.

So I'm not necessarily arguing for age controls here, but purely on a technical level what do you think of schemes like Verifiable Credentials, which delegate verification to third parties that have already established your identity?

In theory you can set up a system that works like this:

1. User goes to restricted site and sets up an account

2. Site forwards them on to a verification service with a request "IsOver18?"

3. User selects their bank from a dropdown on the broker site

4. Broker forwards them to the bank, with a request "IsOver18?"

5. User logs in and selects "Sure, prove I am over 18 to this request"

6. Bank sends a signed response to the broker "Yep"

7. Broker verifies and sends its own signed response to the site "Yep"

8. The site tags the account as "Over 18 Status verified"

In this situation, the restricted site doesn't get anything other than a boolean answer from the broker. The broker can link a request to a given bank but doesn't get anything that gives away your identity. The bank knows your identity and that it has approved a request, but not necessarily where the request came from.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#563

Post by protocolture »

dev_l1x_be wrote: post #309

We need a truly distributed point-to-point internet asap. Politicians going to do everything to limit free speech and free ideas in the name of protecting children while they already got all the powers to investigate and stop child abuse. https://meshtastic.org/

>We need a truly distributed point-to-point internet asap.

Yes.

A mesh network isnt point to point. Its a mesh.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#564

Post by gnabgib »

protocolture wrote: post #563
dev_l1x_be wrote: post #309

We need a truly distributed point-to-point internet asap. Politicians going to do everything to limit free speech and free ideas in the name of protecting children while they already got all the powers to investigate and stop child abuse. https://meshtastic.org/

>We need a truly distributed point-to-point internet asap. Yes. A mesh network isnt point to point. Its a mesh.

So a mesh isn't made up of point to point connections? I'm pretty sure if you have several they start to look like a mesh (and every security site's banner)

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#565

Post by [deleted] »

snek_case wrote: post #529
ketamine wrote: post #494

An anecdote: I am 40 years old and I have an Onlyfans account. I enjoy some hippie chick that makes pottery and takes pics of herself without clothes on. I went on vacation to Tennessee and tried to log in and it said I needed to verify with their identity verification provider. Of course I refused. Now I am home in a different state and still cannot log in. I contacted support and because I was detected in TN once i…

> it's just making it harder for honest people to pay for what they like. I have a female friend who creates that kind of content. Her take is that this is very much intentional. There is a general crackdown on porn in the US. They're not just trying to make it difficult for the clients, but also difficult for people to make this kind of content, distribute it and get paid for it. Of course none of this makes sense.…

[deleted]

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#566

Post by itake »

ketamine wrote: post #494

An anecdote: I am 40 years old and I have an Onlyfans account. I enjoy some hippie chick that makes pottery and takes pics of herself without clothes on. I went on vacation to Tennessee and tried to log in and it said I needed to verify with their identity verification provider. Of course I refused. Now I am home in a different state and still cannot log in. I contacted support and because I was detected in TN once i…

I have the same issue with sales tax.

I moved to asia about 1.5 years ago. But b/c my credit card's billing address is still in the state of WA, Apple and other subscriptions think they should still charge me a sales tax. To remove the sales tax, I have to cancel the subscription and re-create it (losing my grandfather'd rates).

It's insane.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#567

Post by gib444 »

bdangubic wrote: post #540
denkmoon wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western society, for better or worse, is set up such that parents need to resume work as soon as possible. Saying the government has no responsibility in child rearing ignores the economic reality of parents.

By western you mean America? Cause this is true only in America.

It's also true in the UK. High housing costs, high living costs and low wages means two parents need to work as much as possible.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#568

Post by domador »

k33n wrote: post #480
DangitBobby wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's plenty of utility. People can express opinions that they hold honestly but would fear social retribution for if it could be tied back to them publicly. For example, any political opinion that I hold that's modestly center or right of center I would not appreciate being attached to my name online since people are completely incapable of nuance or compartmentalization.

If you wouldn’t make a political statement in a town hall setting where you’re going to show ID, then you probably shouldn’t say it on the internet. But keep in mind that these laws don’t result in your identity being public. They will ultimately result in the sites you’re posting on know that you’re an enumerated individual. The ultimate benefit as I see it is removing outsized leverage over public opinion by bottin…

As with many detractors of anonymity, it seems that you're assuming that the authorities and neighbors you'll deal with will always be virtuous, and not corrupt nor vindictive toward opponents. Maybe you'd like to expose the town's government's corruption or mismanagement at the town hall, but the town is run by a family with a lot of influence and power over everything that happens within the town. You live in the town, fear for your safety, and have no good way of anonymously opposing their corruption, so you stay silent and they get to keep their power.

I don't see how these laws wouldn't make your identity public to someone, even if it's not the public at large. But it'd be enough for that someone to be an individual or entity who turns out to be interested in silencing your voice. Their knowledge of your identity would probably give them power to silence you not only on their platform but also on other platforms, if access to those other platforms is also tied to one single identity.

Bots are a problem but I suspect there are other ways of dealing with them, ways that don't involve making anonymity or pseudonymity impossible.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#569

Post by nightski »

Nursie wrote: post #562
EmbarrassedHelp wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any "verification" means unacceptable privacy violations. The best route is better parental controls, that are not enabled by default. Locking down the OS like ransomware until the user submits to age verification is the wrong approach, and what Apple did in the UK needs to be highly illegal.

> Any "verification" means unacceptable privacy violations. So I'm not necessarily arguing for age controls here, but purely on a technical level what do you think of schemes like Verifiable Credentials, which delegate verification to third parties that have already established your identity? In theory you can set up a system that works like this: 1. User goes to restricted site and sets up an account 2. Site forward…

Verification broker tracks sites which make requests and records it attached to personal data. Site either sells or leaks personal data along with history of all sites visited which require age verification.

Also your solution requires a bank account, not something everyone has. Many do, but not all. Also the bank may not know "which" site you are visiting, but it does now know you are visiting sites which require age verification and how often.

Re: Online age verification is the hill to die on

#570

Post by tardedmeme »

Nursie wrote: post #562
EmbarrassedHelp wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any "verification" means unacceptable privacy violations. The best route is better parental controls, that are not enabled by default. Locking down the OS like ransomware until the user submits to age verification is the wrong approach, and what Apple did in the UK needs to be highly illegal.

> Any "verification" means unacceptable privacy violations. So I'm not necessarily arguing for age controls here, but purely on a technical level what do you think of schemes like Verifiable Credentials, which delegate verification to third parties that have already established your identity? In theory you can set up a system that works like this: 1. User goes to restricted site and sets up an account 2. Site forward…

User installs a browser extension which forwards the request to everyoneisover18.com, owner of that site has a script set up to log into their bank and pass the verification challenge
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