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The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

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Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#561

Post by jonnybgood »

caseysoftware wrote: post #160
paxys wrote: post #23

It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is. "You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane?" "Well I don't have a Real ID." "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." So it was never about security at all then, was it? And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and la…

> So it was never about security at all then, was it? Never was. I flew every other week prior to covid and haven't once been through the scanners. For the first ~6 years, I opted out and got pat down over and over again. Then I realized I could even skip that. Now at the checkpoint, I stand at the metal detector. When they wave me to the scanner, I say "I can't raise my arms over my head." They wave me through the m…

You sound insufferable. Why do they need to be a moron? As you state, designed as a jobs program. So, these workers are low paying government employees who likely have trouble attaining a job or maintaining high job security. You likely live a far more privileged life than these workers. You think they want to do this job? And you call them a moron for simply attempting to do their job?

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#562

Post by mothballed »

542354234235 wrote: post #549
mothballed wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... if you aren't detained you are free to go. And if you are free to go, you are free to stay, unless the property owner has trespassed you. TSA doesn't own the airport, at least in my state. So how can they trespass you from the airport or otherwise continue to detain you from moving forward? I mean, I know you're right, and I know you will always lose if you try, but I don't understand the legal basis.

You are free to leave. You aren't free to go wherever you want. You aren't free to go into the employee areas, or out onto the runway. If you don't clear security, you aren't allowed in the secure portion of the airport. Not allowing entry into an area is not "detaining you from moving forward".

If the government is requiring the property owner to submit to TSA, that's a public act and not a private one, which means it is bound by the bill of rights and most importantly the 4th 5th and maybe even 6th amendment. The government cannot punish you for exercising your rights by refusing you to move forward into the private place you could otherwise lawfully go. If you can't go to the employee area, that's because certain individuals are trespassed from going there from the private owner, not because the government is forcing it. If you can't go to the boarding area, because of the TSA by public act strong arming the property owner, that is not an act of the private owner, and if it's done because you refuse to answer questions it is a violation of your rights.

The ruse here is to pretend like the property owner is agreeing with TSA because TSA forced them to this agreement by government act. But that is just the government trying to have their cake and eat it by forcing someone to do something and then pretending it is a private act which isn't bound to the constitutional right to not have to answer additional questions.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#563

Post by pstuart »

paxys wrote: post #23

It's hilarious how transparent a money grab this entire thing is. "You need to show a Real ID for security, otherwise how do we know you won't hijack the plane?" "Well I don't have a Real ID." "Ok then, give us $45 and you can go through." So it was never about security at all then, was it? And don't get me started with all the paid express security lanes. Because of course only poor people can weaponize shoes and la…

Or the fact that you have to re-up for Pre-TSA -- they already know who we are, they already have their databases, it's intentional money grab. But then again, so is PreTSA...

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#564

Post by mckckvkdnn »

ZeWaka wrote: post #394
wildzzz wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a white male and have TSA pre-check and after walking through the metal detector, maybe one out of several times I get randomly selected for the body scanner. I've never gotten the dreaded SSSS though. I've very rarely traveled alone not on a work trip and never alone on a one way ticket so maybe that helps.

White male who always flies alone and on one-ways here, never gotten SSSS.

Snowden leaked the criteria of when you get SSSS. It’s about 15 things that can trigger it. For example, flying business class with your family.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#565

Post by morcus »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #544
mustyoshi wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to put into words, but you're eroding the social contract through your actions. People with conditions get accused of faking it all the time, and it sounds like you're actually faking it.

If he was doing that to get faster treatment at a hospital or even just a restaurant or something then I'd agree. But by doing it to get faster treatment at the TSA check he's literally doing everyone else a favour.

The argument is that if tricks like this were to become widespread, they may start requiring certified medical documentation (or other hurdles) for said faster treatment, making life even more annoying for people with genuine issues.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#566

Post by caseysoftware »

figassis wrote: post #424
keeda wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

It is mostly security, but not to residents of the country. Those can enforce their rights. In my country, I can argue with airport security, and win. Foreigners can’t, so they follow whatever rules. A few times when landing in the US, security was extremely rude, I think just looking for an excuse (things like throwing your laptop a few feet away, while staring at you, etc). You take it bc you’re not home, and the c…

Reasonable hypothesis but not correct in the US.

The point where you present your ticket+ID is before and separate from the physical screening. It could be anywhere from a few meters to dozens of meters separating them.

At the screening stage, the agents do not know who you are or your nationality.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#567

Post by vladms »

nothrabannosir wrote: post #525
keeda wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The TSA was NEVER about security. It was designed as a jobs program and make it look like we were doing something for security. To a great extent, it is security, even if it's mostly security theater, in the sense that it is security theater that people want . A large portion, maybe even the majority, of travelers simply won't feel safe without it. I've had and overheard multiple conversations at the airport where…

We people are extremely poor judges of our own emotions, particularly in hypotheticals. Normalize having two lines; one with tsa, one without. See which airplane people actually board after a while. Let us put our time and money on the line and we’ll see what we really think. It’s the only way to tell. I’m sure in a world with tsa for buses and trains some people would say the same things they do now about our tsa.

Let's not mix "emotions" with "think". If I am afraid (emotion) about something happening, I will be afraid where the maximum damage can be done - in the queue before the security check (think). Most airports optimized that to reduce the queues, but there are still at least tens of people in a very narrow space.

But I personally do not care that much, because I think most terrorists are dumb or crazy, and you can't fix all dumb or crazy. Some of the dumb and crazy become terrorists, some become CEO-s, some do maintenance of something critical. If something really bad happens I would not feel much better if it was a "dumb CEO" that caused it or it was a "dumb terrorist".

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#568

Post by mk_stjames »

dzogchen wrote: post #464

Fun fact, I rarely have to show my ID when flying in the EU. But what I don’t understand is why so many people don’t have an ID in the US. Seems like one of the very basic service governments should provide.

I fly between various countries in western Europe a dozen times a year and have done so for a decade and every single time I've boarded a plane I have had to shown a photo ID with my name on it that matches my name on the plane ticket. Most of the time the gate agent barely looks at the ID/name, but it is required to hand it to them. I have never once just walked on a plane without showing ID with my name on it, and I have never seen anyone in line in front of me do so, ever, and I'm talking hundreds of flights at this point. It doesn't have to be a passport, I see older Spanish people showing their driver's license only all the time, but it has to have a photo and a name (to match the name on the ticket in some way) and be a state issued ID. Again, they seem very lenient with that whole name matching thing and checking the authenticity of the ID (it isn't scanned, just visually inspected), but I've never seen anyone just say 'no' and get on a plane.

So what the hell part of the EU are you talking about where they don't ask for any ID at the point where you are boarding, whatsoever?

For reference, here is Iberia's page for required ID when flying, and I've seen that this is absolutely enforced every time when checking in and boarding.

https://www.iberia.com/es/fly-with-iberia/documents/spain/

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#569

Post by m000 »

jfengel wrote: post #148
thyrsus wrote: post #35

Explain to me how qualified immunity is better than any ill it is supposed to address? And how is it that if you sue the government and win, then the judgement doesn't automatically award reasonable legal fees?

The ill that it's supposed to address is people hassling government officials who are just doing their jobs. Their jobs require them to do things that people don't want them to do, like making you pay taxes or go to jail for committing crimes. They are prominent targets and can easily spend their entire career fighting off complaints. Of course that promptly shifts the potential for abuse in the other direction. Supp…

Still. I understand the officers having "qualified immunity". But not the agency.

If an agency has shitty officers doing dodgy stuff, it's on the agency. The agents may be declared immune to direct litigation, but any claims and reparations should be automatically shifted to the agency.

Re: The TSA's New $45 Fee to Fly Without ID Is Illegal

#570

Post by mothballed »

rkomorn wrote: post #503
kelnos wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, I don't get it. I do the same thing at every airport in the US: walk off the plane and straight into a taxi.

I think they're talking about international travel and not having to go through border control within the Schengen space even though you're traveling to different countries.

I flew once from Iraq to Sweden (in a private capacity). There was zero controls other than stamping the passport, passport control but no customs inspection. No check of bags and no question of what I might have been doing in Iraq or why I would go from there to Sweden. It was shocking. Just welcome to sweden and off to the street.

Hopefully they haven't changed. It's nice to see a place still left without the paranoia.

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