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I'm returning my Framework 16

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Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#561

Post by swiftcoder »

LoganDark wrote: post #554
swiftcoder wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't realize how much savings we used to extract by progressively upgrading the same desktop PC for two to three generations instead of throwing away the whole PC and buying a new one each time Do you actually realise any savings doing that? Pretty sure I never have. Typically by the time I get around to upgrading, they've changed both the CPU socket and the RAM, so I need a whole new motherboard. And I certai…

AMD sockets last nearly a decade, and power supplies come with up to 13-year (or longer) warranties. It's just that it can be difficult to stay the course for the sheer amount of time it would take for you to realize those savings.

> power supplies come with up to 13-year (or longer) warranties

Unfortunately, those warranties don't tend to cover the rest of your components, if the PSU happens to take out a motherboard or GPU as it dies, you are up the proverbial creek.

Having had a couple of older PSUs die spectacularly, I'm not risking re-using a ~$100 component, on the off-chance it fries ~$500 of brand new motherboard/GPU/etc post-upgrade.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#562

Post by lproven »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #368
cycomanic wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10 year…

If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know. Meanwhile, I don't think the GT 1050m from my 2015 laptop would truly have been that competitive today. And it sure did need several repairs to last the 4-ish years it did get. I'll admit my bias as a gamer and game dev, though. My industry more or less requires a stronger machine by default and the line shifts quickly. Even my decent GTX 3080m is sta…

> If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know.

I have 5.

Thinkpads. X220 i5, X220 i7, T420 i5, T420 i7, W520 quad core i7.

All maxed out or nearly, all in regular use. All nearly 15Y old.

The ?20 range was the last Thinkpad series with good keyboards. That's why I stocked up.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#563

Post by kopirgan »

mistercheph wrote: post #243
kopirgan wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I didn't buy framework laptop but did find their prices high. Regarding assigning premium to repairability, wonder what's really premium about that? I mean in terms of materials used. Ignoring premiums paid for branding, I would think it's fair to charge premium if offering such feature comes with higher cost.

It depends on what "premium"/"luxury" mean to you. For some, red leather that has been masterfully tanned and stitched lining the interior of their car is premium. For others, the ability to transport you hundreds of thousands of miles in any terrain and any conditions with equipment failures that are rare and easy to fix is "premium". Being swaddled in high cost materials while stuck on the side of the road in a sno…

I understand and agree with the logic of repairability and user servicability. No arguments there. Point is why should that be premium for non marketing reasons? For instance, is soldered RAM somehow cheaper than RAM slots? Same for SSD, WiFI card, battery, keyboard assembly etc. (all of which used to be perfectly replaceable not too long ago, in most laptops esp high end Elitebooks & Latitudes as well as mass market Acers)

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#564

Post by pdimitar »

kasey_junk wrote: post #410
pdimitar wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's one of the best idea they have! You might have bought a laptop with 4 USB ports 5 years ago, only to realize you'd be so much happier with two USB-A. Or you realize you never ever use the SD Card slot. Well, you'd fix that easily on a Framework, not on any other laptop. With all due respect -- meh. I have a fairly old-ish laptop that I am not bothered to upgrade because a Ryzen 5500U is super capable to this…

I’d be better off for my work laptop with an even smaller cube that was built expecting a hub to be plugged in. No monitor, keyboard or mouse. I don’t think the keyboard and monitor on it have ever been used outside of diagnosing why the hub isn’t working.

Yeah, that too. And AFAIK many devs do that, they buy mini PCs that are very generously specced and just carry them between home and office, usually plugging every periphery needed (display, keyboard, mouse, Ethernet) by just plugging one high-speed port from the box PC to the hub.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#565

Post by copirate »

rjdj377dhabsn wrote: post #548
copirate wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a Framework laptop you could fix these superficial issues while keeping the chips (and the superficial parts that don't need replacement).

I could, but considering how much value I get out of my laptop, I'd rather just spend $2-3k every couple years and have everything new. Thr value proposition just doesn't make sense unless I were a struggling student.

Or environmentally conscious.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#566

Post by wkat4242 »

comte7092 wrote: post #8

I appreciate the authors thoughtful review here, but I can’t help but be frustrated by the constant lack of understanding of the core value proposition of framework both in this post and in many comments here on hn. Frequently the author brings up that for 2,000 euros they expect a premium experience, but no where is there an evaluation of the value granted by upgradability and repeatability of the machine, and only…

> I think ultimately what frustrates me is that people don’t consider the ability to repair or upgrade your machine part of a “premium” experience, but that’s is just something I have to accept. I think it is unfortunate that our consumerist culture places so little value on it though.

I don't consider that so either, no. I think it should be a standard experience. Not something I have to pay extra for. And really, the bulkiness is something that shouldn't suffer too much from a 2mm memory module.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#567

Post by wkat4242 »

nachopa wrote: post #482
pjmlp wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple did not start anything. PCs are the odd ones, all other 8 and 16 bit home computers were vertically integrated, most expansions were done via external buses connected into one of the sides, usually the back or right side. With the race for thin margins at any cost, if anything thanks to Apple, is that OEMs realised going back to Spectrum, C64, Amiga, Atari ST kind of hardware designs payed off in their bank acc…

My point was that soldered RAM and lack of upgradeable components didn't inspire much of a backlash back then. It led to Apple dominating the higher end of the consumer laptop market.

Apple also drove the quest for extreme thinness. Even Lenovo Thinkpad T keyboards are terrible now due to it.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#568

Post by dngray »

l72 wrote: post #501
dngray wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing I don't get about the framework upgradability is that, what are you honestly going to do with the old system board or graphics card? I guess you could sell it. Who's going to really buy it? I tend to upgrade my laptop every 6-8 years and by then there is nothing to upgrade well, frankly the technology has moved on, new PCIe standards DDR screen tech etc. One of the reasons I did not buy a framework (was ver…

Drop it into this case to be used as a home server or a set top box! https://frame.work/products/cooler-master-mainboard-case

I already have a server at home server. I used a MZ32 motherboard with a bunch of disks 3.5" in it as it's mostly a storage server.

My HTPC is an old ATX desktop computer on its side in a Phanteks P400A case. On it's side it just looks like a black speaker grill front to back cooling it has three Noctua NF-A12x25 fans that are barely even visible.

The good thing about using standard parts is if the GPU died I could buy another cheap one to replace it.

But I guess that case is a cool idea if you didn't have those things.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#569

Post by _cenw »

ixci wrote: post #496
_cenw wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name a law that fits this category that'd personally affect you.

Section 51 of the California Civil Code, for example.

Personally. Not extrapolating from whatever toxic waste you consume online.

My bet is that you're not even in California. But even if you are. What hardship has an open definition of sex to include gender identity and expression inflicted upon you. Please, be specific.

Re: I'm returning my Framework 16

#570

Post by dngray »

jdujfkhllhl wrote: post #515
swiftcoder wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worth noting that even Framework's own desktop has soldered-on RAM, for exactly this reason

And that was even after constructive cooperation with amd. Now think about the more common, hostile, interaction many suppliers provide.

It's also worth noting the CAMM2 ram gets about the same performance.
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