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Everyone in Seattle hates AI

jonready.com

561–570 of 1001 posts

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#561
post #338

As I've said before: AI mandates, like RTO mandates, are just another way to "quiet fire" people, or at least "quiet renegotiate" their employment. That said, AI resistance is real too. We see it on this forum. It's understandable because the hype is all about replacing people, which will naturally make them defensive, whereas the narrative should be about amplifying them. A well-intentioned AI mandate would either c…

> AI mandates, like RTO mandates, are just another way to "quiet fire" people That's a recurring argument, and I don't believe it, especially in large tech companies. They have no problem doing multiple large non-quiet lay-offs, why would they need moustache-twirling level schemes to get people to quit. I don't believe companies to be well intentioned, but the simplest explanation is often the best: 1. RTO are probab…

> They have no problem doing multiple large non-quiet lay-offs, why would they need moustache-twirling level schemes to get people to quit.

So the thing about all large layoffs is that there is actually some non-obvious calculus behind them.

One thing for instance, is that typically in the time period soon after layoffs, there is some increased attrition in the surviving employees, for a multitude of reasons. So if you layoff X people you actually end up with X + Y lower headcount shortly after. There are also considerations like regulations.

What this means is that planning layoffs has multiple moving parts:

1) The actual monetary amount to cut -- it all starts with $$$;

2) The absolute number of headcount that translates to;

3) The expected follow-on attrition rate;

4) The severance (if any) to offer;

5) The actual headcount to cut with a view of the attrition and severance;

6) Local labor regulations (e.g. WARN) and their impact, monetary or otherwise;

7) Consideration, impact on internal morale and future recruitment.

So it's a bit like tuning a dynamic system with several interacting variables at play

Now the interesting bit of tea here is that in the past couple of years, the follow-on (and all other) attrition has absolutely plummeted, which has thrown the standard approaches all out of whack. So companies are struggling a bit to "tune" their layoffs and attrition.

I had an exec frankly tell me this after one of the earliest waves of layoffs a couple years ago, and I heard from others that this was happening across the industry. Sure enough, there have been more and more seemingly haphazard waves of layoffs and the absolute toxicity this has introduced into corporate culture.

Due to all this and the overal economy and labor market, employee power has severely weakened, so things like morale and future recruitment are also lower priorities.

Given all this calculus, a company can actually save quite some money (severance) and trouble if people quit by themselves, with minimal negative repercussions.

Not quite moustache-twirling but not quite savory either.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#562
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right this is what I can’t quite understand. A lot of HN folks appear to have been burned by e.g. horrible corporate or business ideas by non technical people that don’t understand AI, that is completely understandable. What I never understand is the population of coders that don’t see any value in coding agents or are aggressively against them, or people that deride LLMs as failing to be able to do X (or hallucinate…

> Predictions of “2025 is the year of coding agents” from a chorus of otherwise unpalatable CEOs was in fact absolutely true… ... but maybe not in the way that these CEOs had hoped.[0] Part of the AI fatigue is that busy, competent devs are getting swarmed with massive amounts of slop from not-very-good developers. Or product managers getting 5 paragraphs of GenAI bug reports instead of a clear and concise explanatio…

> busy, competent devs are getting swarmed with massive amounts of slop from not-very-good developers

that is a real issue and yet a normal problem and so has an obvious response.

oh wow that PR

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#563

From the article: > I wanted her take on Wanderfugl , the AI-powered map I've been building full-time. I can at least give you one piece of advice. Before you decide on a company or product name, take the time to speak it out loud so you can get a sense of how it sounds.

The weird thing is that half of the uses of the name on that landing page spell it as "Wanderfull". All of the mock-up screencaps use it, and at the bottom with "Be one of the first people shaping Wanderfull" etc. So even the creator can't decide what to call it!

AI probably generated all of that and the OP didn't even review its output.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> health and safety seems irrelevant to me Honestly I don’t really know what to say to that, other than it seems rather relevant to me. I don’t really know what to elaborate on given we disagree on such a fundamental level.

I for one have no idea what you mean by health and safety with respect to AI. Do you have an OSHA concern?

I have an “enabling suicidal ideation” concern for starters.

To be honest I’m kind of surprised I need to explain what this means so my guess is you’re just baiting/being opaque, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and answer your question taken at face value: There have been plenty of high profile incidents in the news over the past year or two, as well as multiple behavioral health studies showing that we need to think critically about how these systems are deployed. If you are unable to find them I’ll locate them for you and link them, but I don’t want to get bogged down in “source wars.” So please look first (search “AI psychosis” to start) and then hit me up if you really can’t find anything.

I am not against the use of LLM’s, but like social media and other technologies before it, we need to actually think about the societal implications. We make this mistake time and time again.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#566

There's a great non-AI point in this article - Seattle has great engineers. In pursuing startups, Seattle engineers are relatively unambitious compared to the Bay Area. By that I mean there's less "shooting for unicorns" and a comparatively more reserved startup culture and environment. I'm not sure why. I don't think it's access to capital, but I'd love to hear thoughts.

one reason is that startup culture is cringe as hell

I'm being course, but like... it is though.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#567
post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, "Engineers don't try" is a frustrating statement. We've all tried generative AI, and there's not that much to it — you put text in, you get text back out. Some models are better at some tasks, some tools are better at finding the right text and connecting it to the right actions, some tools provide a better wrapper around the text-generation process. Certain jobs are very easy for AI to do, others are impossibl…

> Yeah, "Engineers don't try" is a frustrating statement. We've all tried generative AI, and there's not that much to it — you put text in, you get text back out. "Engineers don't try" doesn’t refer to trying out AI in the article. It refers to trying to do something constructive and useful outside the usual corporate churn, but having given up on that because management is single-mindedly focused on AI. One way to s…

ZIRP is gone, and so are the Good Times when any idiot could get money with nothing but a PowerPoint slide deck and some charisma.

That doesn't mean investors have gotten smarter, they've just become more risk averse. Now, unless there's already a bandwagon in motion, it's hard as hell to get funded (compared to before at least).

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> health and safety seems irrelevant to me Honestly I don’t really know what to say to that, other than it seems rather relevant to me. I don’t really know what to elaborate on given we disagree on such a fundamental level.

Do you think the industry will stop because of your concern? If for example, AI does what it says on the box but causes goiters for prompt jockeys do you think the industry will stop then or offshore the role of AI jockey? It's lovely that you care about health, but I have no idea why you think you are relevant to a society that is very much willing to risk extinction to avoid the slightest upset or delay to consumer…

> Do you think the industry will stop because of your concern?

I’m not sure what this question is addressing. I didn’t say it needs to “stop” or the industry has to respond to me.

> It's lovely that you care about health,

1) you should care too, 2) drop the patronizing tone if you are actually serious about having a conversation.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#569

Ex-Google here; there are many people both current and past-Google that feel the same way as the composite coworker in the linked post. I haven't escaped this mindset myself. I'm convinced there are a small number of places where LLMs make truly effective tools (see: generation of "must be plausible, need not be accurate" data, e.g. concept art or crowd animations in movies), a large number of places where LLMs make…

My friends at Google are some of the most negative about the potential of AI to improve software development. I was always surprised by this and assumed internally at Google would be one of the first places to adopt these.

Excuse the throwaway. It's not even just the employees, but it doesn't even seem like the technical leadership seriously cares about internal AI use. Before I left all they pushed was code generation, but my work was 80% understanding 5-20 year old code and 20% actual development. If they put any noticeable effort into an LLM that could answer "show me all users of Proto.field that would be affected by X", my life would've been changed for the better, but I don't think the technical leadership understands this, or they don't want to spare the TPUs.

When I started at my post-Google job, I felt so vindicated when my new TL recommended that I use an LLM to catch up if no one was available to answer my questions.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#570
From someone who's mostly avoided the AI craze so far, I think it comes down to a combination of two things.

1) "AI" is in many ways like the unreliable coworker so many of us have had in the past - maybe someone who talked a good game in interviews, but after you'd worked with them for a while you realize that you have to double-check everything they do for stupid/careless problems. In the worst case, you also have to do some hand-holding as they ask you for help with things that they should know how to do. They can produce good output but they can't be trusted to produce good (or even marginal) output so they're a net time sink.

2) In a frightening number of companies right now, that problem coworker is the owner's or manager's relative and cannot be avoided.

So boom, there you go, bad coworkers and a toxic culture that not just protects but promotes them.

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