Live data from Hacker News

How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

heise.de

561–570 of 585 posts

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#561
post #389
post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excellent point. Ukraine, like any sovereign country, can join whatever alliances it wants too. There is no right in international law that allows its neighbours to invade if it picks one they don’t like. Add to that that it’s a mutual defence pact and the argument becomes more absurd.

What would happen if Canada joined a mutual defense pact with Russia? Or Mexico? Think about this scenario, would the US invade immediately?. Something similar actually happened with Cuba in the 60s, and the US invaded them, doing a total naval siege [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Missile_Crisis

You are conveniently omitting the reason why all those Eastern European states wanted to join NATO, which is that they were previously invaded and occupied by USSR and/or Imperial Russia, in some cases more than once (e.g. Poland).

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#562
post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Invading Ukraine in the first place appears to have been far more trouble than it was worth, and it didn’t stop them.

On the contrary they seem to be doing much better than anyone expected, maybe even themselves, and they appear to have successfully stopped Ukraine from ever joining NATO which was absolutely their main objective, just see what they have been saying since 1992.

The initial expectation was for Ukraine to fall in weeks. The convoys that were headed for Kyiv had Rosgvardia in them - that's basically riot police, not military troops, and they were equipped as such. So no, they were absolutely going for the whole Ukraine (as a puppet state in the west and probably annexations in the east) and instead got stuck in the worst meat grinder Russia has seen since WW2.

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#563
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU is in a very tough spot right now. They're getting squeezed on all sides economically by USA and China while simultaneously facing a Russian invasion on their eastern borders. The relationship with the American administration has deteriorated badly and any action seen as "retaliation", such as this policy blockade, would almost definitely result in USA withdrawing even more support for Ukraine in the war. I think,…

From the Russia POV invading Ukraine was a response to NATO expanding there. An imminent invasion of Europe seems outside of Russia’s geopolitical goals. But Europe’s leaders on the other hand do seem invested in escalating this conflict, a lack of finances notwithstanding.

From the Russia POV invading Ukraine was a consequence of a deeply entrenched belief that Ukrainians "aren't a real people" and that Ukrainian is "not a real language", and that Ukraine is basically Russian territory that was forcibly separated and "derussified". Putin pretty much spelled it out in the open before the invasion.

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#564
post #237
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the pained debate here by Western Europeans over the semantics of “Europe” and Ukraine’s relationship therewith, it’s very unlikely NATO would act and that’s precisely what the Russians would bet on.

Russia's best case scenario atm is they take more of eastern Ukraine and the west establishes a DMZ not far from the current frontlines. Pushing up anywhere close to Lviv/Polish border would be like winning the lottery given their current track record. These sorts of wars are very rare in the modern era. They gambled entirely because they faced an army they were 10x the size and they got embarrassed. There's near zer…

Ukraine has a severe manpower problem, while Russia hasn't even implemented full mobilization yet. They can keep grinding down the existing defenses until there are simply not enough Ukrainians in uniform left to hold the tide, and then things would break down pretty quickly in the absence of external support.

They would still have to contend with an insurgency on occupied territory, but that is something Russia has considerable experience with, including Ukraine in the past (mopping up the remaining nationalist resistance after WW2).

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#565
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon me, you have gotten yourself dragged into a tu quoque defense of Russia. It is best not to engage in these arguments, because they are almost never conducted in good faith. The goal is partially to make the claim that "the US is just as bad/worse, therefore, Russia is acting morally/logically/blamelessly", but primarily to simply turn the conversation into one where you are defending everything the US has ever…

My argument is that Russia was compelled to attack both Georgia and Ukraine because of NATO expansion, or rather preventing NATO expansion, not because of "Putin is crazy, wants to be a Tsar". Your argument is that Russia wants to occupy territory just for the sake of expanding Russia, which is really not logical or reasonable. My argument is that if Mexico or Canada joined a military pact with Russia, the US would i…

Buddy, pal, even if it wasn't absolutely craven to attack a country for fear they'd join a defensive pact because they were afraid you'd attack them, you're already begging the question that Ukraine was about to join NATO, which has been shelved for two decades, and even more off the table for the last decade since joining NATO would have required relinquishing its claim on Crimea.

There was a 0% chance of Ukraine joining NATO in the next N years prior to Russia's invasion of them in 2021.

Even if by some twisted logic that were pretext for a quote-unquote "just war", it cannot be a justification for the land grab Russia is making in Ukraine today, killing civilians and committing various war crimes on the daily to do it.

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#566
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is that Russia was compelled to attack both Georgia and Ukraine because of NATO expansion, or rather preventing NATO expansion, not because of "Putin is crazy, wants to be a Tsar". Your argument is that Russia wants to occupy territory just for the sake of expanding Russia, which is really not logical or reasonable. My argument is that if Mexico or Canada joined a military pact with Russia, the US would i…

Buddy, pal, even if it wasn't absolutely craven to attack a country for fear they'd join a defensive pact because they were afraid you'd attack them, you're already begging the question that Ukraine was about to join NATO, which has been shelved for two decades, and even more off the table for the last decade since joining NATO would have required relinquishing its claim on Crimea. There was a 0% chance of Ukraine jo…

> joining NATO would have required relinquishing its claim on Crimea.

That’s...not at all clear (there is no such legal requirement, though there were some NATO members who publicly suggested that resolving the territorial disputes with Russia first was their then-current diplomatic position at various times in the discussion of the possibility. But diplomatic positions are sometimes prone to change in response to inducements from parties with different preferences.)

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not even just the flow of services Trump is ignoring: an iPhone is made in China but the design and software is done in the USA, most of the parts come from other countries, most of an iPhone’s value isn’t originating from China. Trump wants us to give up high value jobs in designing hardware and software so we can make less working in factories again.

No... not everyone is capable of doing hardware or software design... There are over 350 million people in the US. There are nowhere near that many software/hardware jobs.. or other IP generating jobs. Not only that, but corporations are bringing in a lot of people to do those jobs as well, driving down those wages. It's not even just jobs, it's also the tax revenue itself.. the population is overburdened with taxes…

We already have a low unemployment rate and we have plenty of low paying jobs even in manufacturing that are going unfilled now. Surely those workers have to come from somewhere, and China is really eager to switch places with us. A decade from now Americans will probably be manufacturing stuff for rich Chinese consumers who would rather work jobs in product design and software development that we used to do, and we will owe it all to Trump and the voters that put him in power.

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#568
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pardon me, you have gotten yourself dragged into a tu quoque defense of Russia. It is best not to engage in these arguments, because they are almost never conducted in good faith. The goal is partially to make the claim that "the US is just as bad/worse, therefore, Russia is acting morally/logically/blamelessly", but primarily to simply turn the conversation into one where you are defending everything the US has ever…

My argument is that Russia was compelled to attack both Georgia and Ukraine because of NATO expansion, or rather preventing NATO expansion, not because of "Putin is crazy, wants to be a Tsar". Your argument is that Russia wants to occupy territory just for the sake of expanding Russia, which is really not logical or reasonable. My argument is that if Mexico or Canada joined a military pact with Russia, the US would i…

  > My argument is that Russia was compelled to attack both Georgia and Ukraine because of NATO expansion, or rather preventing NATO expansion, not because of "Putin is crazy, wants to be a Tsar".
This fails to explain why Russia attacked both countries after NATO had decided not to offer them a path to membership.

Putin's intense hostility toward NATO stems from the fact that NATO stands in the way of invading Europe. The blitzkrieg against Ukraine also failed largely because of military support from European NATO members, who used established NATO communication channels to coordinate their efforts - exactly the thing NATO was established for!

If Russia were a normal European country, it would have nothing to lose and much to gain from bordering NATO. NATO membership comes with oversight and separation requirements that make member states stable and predictable. A former, pre-Putin foreign minister of Russia described this as "free-of-charge security on Russia's western border".

It is a problem for Putin only because he seeks to invade Europe; NATO stands in the way.

  > Your argument is that Russia wants to occupy territory just for the sake of expanding Russia, which is really not logical or reasonable.
It is perfectly reasonable when you look at who holds power in Russia: the old revanchist KGB clan seeking to restore the USSR and the Eastern Bloc. This is the world they grew up in and were indoctrinated into in KGB schools. For them, it is a "normalcy" to which they must return.

  > My argument is that if Mexico or Canada joined a military pact with Russia, the US would invade those countries immediately.
There is no need for guessing games when Cuba was actually in a military pact with the USSR until 1991 and hosted jets, bombers, missile cruisers and other conventional weapons for decades after the missile crisis. You can read about Soviet warships conducting missile drills off the coast of Florida in old newspapers. This is far more than anyone has done for countries that have joined NATO since the end of the Cold War. And yet, the US did not invade Cuba.

  > Your argument is that any country can join a mutually defence pact without any consequences, as should be the case for Ukraine.
Russia has repeatedly, in writing, pledged to respect the sovereignty of other European countries, including Ukraine, and their freedom to join military alliances. There's nothing to discuss - unless you want to turn Europe into a landscape of semi-sovereign nations ruled by Russia, which raises the question: why should Russia, in particular, be the European master race? Shouldn't the Franco-German alliance, with its much larger economy, bigger population, and numerous allies, instead dictate what Russia can and cannot do?

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#569

The more USA is going to use this leaver, the likely they will make this leaver useless in the future. Like with China, when they overused chips leaver which stunted China for a while, but eventually gave them a way to establish their own chip industry. Now that leaver is becoming effectively useless. It will ends up same with EU.

Is that true? I think the "we've actually used this leaver, just once" is much more likely to cause European judges to be extremely trepedatious. There's a difference between sanctioning an entire country and it's most important industries, which will force it to react and fight, and just victimizing a single judge, who Europeans can ignore the plight of.

Re: How a French judge was digitally cut off by the USA

#570
post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fake news from Russia... Both Germany and France said no for Ukraine to join NATO several times, exactly to avoid poking the bear and starting a war.

First off, what I stated is a view held by reputable scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Jeffrey Sachs, and John Mearsheimer, not just a view you (also) can find in Russian propaganda. Second my point is understanding the Russian POV, regardless of the correctness of that POV. Third, your comment is off base historically. The timeline is: 2007 Putin’s Munich speech warning against NATO expansion to Eastern Europe. Feb 200…

> First off, what I stated is a view held by reputable scholars such as Noam Chomsky, Jeffrey Sachs, and John Mearsheimer

You have named 3 people out of 8 billion alive, so 0.00000004%. That doesn't sound like a consensus, or even a majority. It sounds like 3 dudes saying a thing.

> The timeline is: 2007 Putin’s Munich speech warning against NATO expansion to Eastern Europe...

So as far back as 2007, we have recordings of putin threatening other countries against exercising their sovereign rights, in violation of international law. Not great for russia.

Unfortunately for the world, the timeline starts far before that, with russian invasions and annexations of their neighbors. If we look further back, we see russian genocide of Ukrainians during the holodomor. If we look even further back, we see russian ethnic cleansing of Ukrainian Tatars.

Based on this history, and the admissions of russian officials, we can conclude that russia just wants what Ukraine has, and hates Ukrainians for saying no.

Post reply on HN