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MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

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Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#561

Post by 1dom »

kbelder wrote: post #394
arghwhat wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does it make you less frustrated No. There is no valid justification, and the suggestion otherwise suggests a lack of understanding of what exactly these rude individuals are demanding. The very least people can do when receiving such quite extensive voluntary favors and dedication from others is to be polite and show proper gratitude and appreciation. Otherwise, they are not worth the personal and uncompensated sa…

They are also, by complaining, incentivizing other people to not even offer free services in the future. Why set yourself up for accusations that you're 'breaking your social contract' or whatnot?

They're incentivising people to ensure they give proper notice when pulling free services, that even offering free services come with responsibility.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#562

Post by sarchertech »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #560
sarchertech wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you’re depending on the party for very important things you need to ask the neighbor how long they promise to keep throwing the party. You don’t just get to assume they’re going to do it literally forever and get mad when they stop.

In this analogy, you ask and they decline to promise anything concrete about the future, just saying that they currently have no plans to change. Their statement is the same any time they're asked, with no early warning via that method. And, reminder, they keep encouraging people to use the party as an important foundation for their own efforts. Does that help explain why a sudden stop is causing harm to people that…

If someone says “we have no plans to stop hosting this party, but we can’t promise anything concrete” and you decide to depend on that party without a backup, you’re behaving like an idiot.

This analogy has been tortured to within an inch of its life though.

People could keep using the old docker images while they trivially build their own.

If you want to make the example fit it’s more like “hey we’re still having the party but we aren’t gonna to put up any new decorations. If you want to put up the new decorations we left our garage open, but you have to do it yourself“.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#563

Post by Dylan16807 »

sarchertech wrote: post #562
Dylan16807 wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this analogy, you ask and they decline to promise anything concrete about the future, just saying that they currently have no plans to change. Their statement is the same any time they're asked, with no early warning via that method. And, reminder, they keep encouraging people to use the party as an important foundation for their own efforts. Does that help explain why a sudden stop is causing harm to people that…

If someone says “we have no plans to stop hosting this party, but we can’t promise anything concrete” and you decide to depend on that party without a backup, you’re behaving like an idiot. This analogy has been tortured to within an inch of its life though. People could keep using the old docker images while they trivially build their own. If you want to make the example fit it’s more like “hey we’re still having th…

The docker users do generally have a backup. But being shoved onto a backup sucks, and with no warning it's even worse.

That level of promise is what you get with 95% or more of products and services. It's not like you can avoid it.

I understand the impulse to say that these expectations are unreasonable so nobody should get mad. But when companies cultivate those expectations on purpose, it stops being unreasonable to get mad.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#564

Post by colechristensen »

xrd wrote: post #398
colechristensen wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I see both sides of the argument here, the people maintaining minio should not have to push docker images for free, it is work to maintain and test, especially across all the host platforms. And, this work isn't that complicated if you want to do it yourself I don't. It's automated, it needs approximately zero attention. This is just a company that got where it was benefitting from open source taking the free toys a…

I've spent a lot of time trying to get pytorch working inside docker against cuda. That's a big challenge even just on one architecture. It isn't as simple as you make it to be and they have to determine how they allocate resources so they can pay people. I'm still grateful for this project and would rather they dice focus on functionally than packaging.

Building pytorch correctly involves building several python libraries and compiling the extensions in other languages with the correct compiler flags for your particular setup while having a lot of exact version matching software installed at the same time.

Python and pip are just bad at this.

Passing a GPU through into a docker container requires a lot of permissions and flags to be set up just right, and it's way more difficult if your host operating system isn't natively Linux.

What you're describing is essentially the most difficult imaginable container to maintain.

Maintaining a normal containerized application, especially if you want to put it in maintenance mode forever and basically just leave the container working the same way with up to date code... is essentially zero effort. A few hours a year by one person and certainly something open source that a contributor would be happy to be responsible for.

This isn't the case of a company saving money or time by stopping supporting some onerous container build... they're intentionally kneecapping the open source offering hoping more people will pay for their product, which is scummy.

I had positive feelings about minio until I read this, now I don't want to touch it expecting whatever is next to be even more annoying whether I was paying them or not.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#565

Post by arghwhat »

1dom wrote: post #271
arghwhat wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does it make you less frustrated No. There is no valid justification, and the suggestion otherwise suggests a lack of understanding of what exactly these rude individuals are demanding. The very least people can do when receiving such quite extensive voluntary favors and dedication from others is to be polite and show proper gratitude and appreciation. Otherwise, they are not worth the personal and uncompensated sa…

> No. There is no valid justification, and the suggestion otherwise suggests a lack of understanding of what exactly these rude individuals are demanding. Like I said, the fact that people are human, and that minios did a thing repeatedly, is why the expectation is there. Saying it's not justified is like saying the sky isn't justified being blue, getting upset and frustrated about it is even more silly. There's no n…

> Like I said, the fact that people are human

Repeating something unreasonable does not make it reasonable.

If I donate to charity for 10 years in a row, someone might come to expect my donation, sure. If I chose to lower or stop my donation, the only response others are entitled to is gratitude for the remaining and past donations. There is no requirement for warning. Heck, in this particular case the whole "charity donation" is still there, just packaged differently. Discontent makes no sense.

People's rude behavior isn't limited to HN comments, they take it everywhere: Reddit, GitHub issues, mailing lists, channels. Nor was my comment specific to this minio news, but rather about people's attitude towards free things in general.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#566

Post by arghwhat »

1dom wrote: post #561
kbelder wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also, by complaining, incentivizing other people to not even offer free services in the future. Why set yourself up for accusations that you're 'breaking your social contract' or whatnot?

They're incentivising people to ensure they give proper notice when pulling free services, that even offering free services come with responsibility.

No they're just incentivizing not caring.

"Responsibility" is a word mostly thrown about by people making demands as if they are somehow entitled to full service contracts on stuff they got for free - which is especially fun when said provider offers actual service contracts.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#567

Post by arghwhat »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #541
kbelder wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also, by complaining, incentivizing other people to not even offer free services in the future. Why set yourself up for accusations that you're 'breaking your social contract' or whatnot?

Discouraging unreliable free things is good in a lot of cases.

You just get fewer free things then. Not sure how thats good.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#568

Post by Dylan16807 »

arghwhat wrote: post #567
Dylan16807 wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discouraging unreliable free things is good in a lot of cases.

You just get fewer free things then. Not sure how thats good.

Free things tend to push out competition. So the worst case scenario is pushing out competition and then disappearing.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#569

Post by nullfield »

naikrovek wrote: post #377
bee_rider wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think very few businesses were created just to help people. Maybe some nonprofits. Lots of good businesses were created to just make their owners a reasonable income, I mean, most people will take “be rich” if that’s an option but have reasonable expectations. The problem with heavily invested in companies is occurs when they skip the stage of being a small profitable business with an actual business model.

I think even 50 years ago, that most people started businesses because they had a skill and could use it to help others meet their needs. HP started (more than 50 years ago) with two friends who wanted to make better electronic test equipment. Profit was not forefront in their mind like it is to an MBA graduate today. Hewlett and Packard wanted to provide quality test equipment to people, because a lot of the test eq…

It was still profit-motivated back then, at least in the positive self-interest manner.

The difference is that colleges actually educated students, and students were actually there to learn.

Re: MinIO stops distributing free Docker images

#570

Post by arghwhat »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #568
arghwhat wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just get fewer free things then. Not sure how thats good.

Free things tend to push out competition. So the worst case scenario is pushing out competition and then disappearing.

This happens more often with paid things, as these have a direct financial incentive to elliminate competition and grow adoption. Free stuff does not.
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