Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

German government comes out against Chat Control

xcancel.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

561–570 of 578 posts

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#561

Post by selfmodruntime »

camillomiller wrote: post #467
selfmodruntime wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany does have limited Freedom. I won't move an inch in this matter. The exact paragraph behind the Habeck or Grote case is now being abused by the literal thousands each year. And violent crime is on the rise, we are currently back at a 2005 level. It is very easy to find sources on this matter.

This is patently false. Any claim of the contrary is AfD propaganda, aiming at destabilising society. Source: https://www.dw.com/en/crime-statistics-knife-crime-drugs-lif...

Your claim is blatantly false. Any claim of the contrary is wrong. I won't go as far as to insult you in the way you did. I was talking about violent crime, which is indeed on the rise [1] (here sourced by the far right "Tagesschau" \irony), you are linking a study on crime, which includes non-violent crime such as petty theft. Violent crime is at a level not seen for 15 years. I suggest you read the comments of people thoroughly before embarassingly accusing them of spreading propaganda - which can be disproven with a 5 second google search.

[1]: https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/straftaten-kri...

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#562

Post by selfmodruntime »

KPGv2 wrote: post #486
brazukadev wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A social market economy is capitalism with rules and safety nets, like strong labor protections, healthcare, and pensions, to make sure people are protected from big hardships so it is not socialism, the whole point of this discussion.

@selfmodruntime Arguing that the existence of regulations makes an economy non-capitalist is something I've only ever seen extreme left and extreme right-wing people make. Everyone else recognizes "capitalism is a system based on private ownership, wage labor, and private capital accumulation" as a fundamental truth, including, like, all experts in this field. Ultimately, you're making a No True Scotsman argument. Ge…

> @selfmodruntime Arguing that the existence of regulations makes an economy non-capitalist is something I've only ever seen extreme left and extreme right-wing people make.

Good thing I haven't argued that at all. I was arguing that Germany, which calls its economic system "Social Economics" in fact employs this very economic strategy, which is defined as not being straight forward capitalist but as a mixture of capitalism and socialism.

> Germany's market is an example of welfare capitalism, which is a type of capitalism.

Germany's market is per definition not welfare capitalism, but "social economics". This term exists, it is well defined, you can look it up.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#563

Post by selfmodruntime »

zahlman wrote: post #484
brazukadev wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sentence does not apply because a "social market economy" does not forbid the generation of profits. Profits are to be shared with the populace to pay for social policies, which is happening. Sure. But that is as socialist as it was the National Socialist German Workers Party.

The continued reference to "socialism" here is a strawman. The discussion started with pembrook's complaint https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45512714 and then had selfmodruntime explaining how the system works starting with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45513552 . At no point did either person describe the system as "socialism". selfmodruntime was even explicit in referring to "'Social market economy'... a…

Thanks! I am trying to educate only!

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#564

Post by selfmodruntime »

mfru wrote: post #540
zahlman wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The continued reference to "socialism" here is a strawman. The discussion started with pembrook's complaint https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45512714 and then had selfmodruntime explaining how the system works starting with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45513552 . At no point did either person describe the system as "socialism". selfmodruntime was even explicit in referring to "'Social market economy'... a…

I met selfmodruntime at their discussional level. The "USSR guidebook" quote was uncalled for and plain hyperbole. It also was factually incorrect.

I have re-visited and re-read all of my comments. Nowhere did I mention a USSR guidebook anywhere! This must have been from another commenter. Sorry!

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#565

Post by modo_mario »

the_gipsy wrote: post #559
modo_mario wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At that point you seriously, seriously fucked up. I think we've realistically introduced a source of political hubris for generations to come and created a scenario where if we're not being too optimistic about the perfect path being taken there will be sharp edges whichever way you go. The same happened here in the past with our flemish/wallonian sectarianism that should've never been started and inflamed. In fact…

I'm not your chatgpt, man

What?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#566

Post by Xelbair »

the_gipsy wrote: post #531
Xelbair wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so you've made up your mind beforehand, and will never change your views on any of this. why you even do you bother to keep arguing in bad faith?

Just answer

why would i bother when you've already established that you're arguing in bad faith?

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#567

Post by selfmodruntime »

mfru wrote: post #541
selfmodruntime wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why you are downvoted. Because the reality of this is unpopular for critics of capitalism. Most people rarely have an idea how far removed from laissez faire capitalism European countries are. This doesn't stop critics from ironically mentioning that free markets altogether don't work for example in our renter's market (which is the most restricted market we have). The ill-effects we are now feeling are fr…

If you ask nearly any person on the street in Germany (or Austria, or Switzerland) which economic system is in effect, they will say it is capitalism. Because it is. The means of production are in the hand of capital. Profit is the driving factor of companies. "Number go up" is still the default goal.

> If you ask nearly any person on the street in Germany (or Austria, or Switzerland) which economic system is in effect, they will say it is capitalism. Because it is.

If I ask the average person on the street if they think the moon phases have impacts on their life, chances are a good portion will agree. Majority opinion does not make for facts.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#569

Post by the_gipsy »

Xelbair wrote: post #566
the_gipsy wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just answer

why would i bother when you've already established that you're arguing in bad faith?

So you make a claim, and when being doubted, essentially you say "you tell me why you're wrong, or else I've made my point".

Genius.

Re: German government comes out against Chat Control

#570

Post by modo_mario »

the_gipsy wrote: post #568
modo_mario wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What?

You're just rambling, talking more to yourself than me. Have a nice day.

Looking at your other responses in this thread was anything other than what could be twisted as "changing "my side" to be a little fascistic" or 'continue on as is being done now' a valid answer?

To also answer one i didn't address : 'What is to be done with the overlaps, e.g. people that are homosexuals but are racists, people from racial minorities that are homophobic, and so on?'

The later if not a national you could in many cases not let/keep in your country or otherwise give citizenship. As for the later it just happens that i know a lesbian VB (our far right) advocate. She was a callbus driver that got attacked for her sexuality. It's not the average but someone you are unlikely to ever win back regardless of whether you typify her as racist or xenophobe or not because she sees "your side" as the origin of the former, the unintended champion of islamists and the like.

Post reply on HN