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Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

riksbank.se

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Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#561

Post by reaperducer »

buzer wrote: post #516
reaperducer wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike in USA you cannot just pull cash from someone's account if you know their bank account number People say things like this as if the money taken in a fraudulent transaction just disappears and is untraceable, and unrecoverable. That is false. It's one of those scare tactics that the middlemen use to sell a vision of financial-techno-secure-utopianism in order to collect a percentage of the money. Don't fall for…

> The money has to go somewhere: Into another bank account, usually, which is easily traceable since banks by law have to know who they're dealing with. Yes but you actually need to notice that it happened which requires them to actively monitor their transactions on all of their accounts. They then need to use their own time to report these transactions and wait for banks to resolve it. And that's just in the good c…

Yes but you actually need to notice that it happened which requires them to actively monitor their transactions on all of their accounts.

Do they not have account alerts in your country? Any time any of my balances change, I get an immediate push notification.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#562

Post by jagged-chisel »

mrtksn wrote: post #9

It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. On planes they often accept credit cards even when there's no internet. I assume this is a trust in-credit-based system because they don't accept debit cards, i.e. if you are worth being trusted with a card you can have your sandwich now and we will take care of the bank processing once we are on the ground. So may…

Think about credit cards before online processing - the old paper machines that imprinted your card onto carbon paper.

The merchant was guaranteed payment. You, on the other hand, were indebted to the bank. The concept of a “credit limit” was the line over which the bank insisted you not step, lest you incur fees galore.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#563

Post by buzer »

reaperducer wrote: post #561
buzer wrote: post #516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The money has to go somewhere: Into another bank account, usually, which is easily traceable since banks by law have to know who they're dealing with. Yes but you actually need to notice that it happened which requires them to actively monitor their transactions on all of their accounts. They then need to use their own time to report these transactions and wait for banks to resolve it. And that's just in the good c…

Yes but you actually need to notice that it happened which requires them to actively monitor their transactions on all of their accounts. Do they not have account alerts in your country? Any time any of my balances change, I get an immediate push notification.

> Do they not have account alerts in your country? Any time any of my balances change, I get an immediate push notification.

Just to be clear, I currently live in the US. In Finland some banks offer email/SMS notifications but they often have fees associated with them.

Frequent notifications can create notification fatigue and that's not really great either as I'm sure anyone who gets false positive alerts from monitoring system knows.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#564

Post by ExoticPearTree »

cambaceres wrote: post #538
ExoticPearTree wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not about paying by cash but paying by card offline. How is this going to be implemented I wonder. Considering that the card has memory on it, you can store there how much balance you have when you do an online payment. The bank can send back your available balance, so you cannot spend offline more than you have. I can't think about anything simpler than this.

Unless money has been withdrawn from the account connected to the card after the card was last online.

True. But you can have a rule that says something like “after X offline transactions you must insert the card into an ATM for update”.

My thinking is that in this day and and age, unless something bad really happens (war, volcanic erruption), the chances of using a card for offline transactions for an extended period of time are very close to zero.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#565

Post by raffraffraff »

lxgr wrote: post #384
raffraffraff wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My Garmin watch has Garmin Pay, which works even if I don't have my phone with me. I think I just presumed that there is a bank balance cached somewhere in the app so that an attempt to spend up to a hard limit or that amount will work.

Mobile/wearable wallets are usually online-only, since you can add one card to many devices, so offline limits would be really painful to synchronize (or alternatively banks would be taking a big risk by allowing more than one or two devices and duplicating limits).

Indeed. But still, there must be some sort of "credit score" behind these devices. It can't just give money to a vendor. It must be based on some prior amount agreed between Garmin Pay and the bank or card provider.

Take a debit card for example. It's connected to a bank account, and cannot give credit. Garmin must be taking some of the risk on board, since the bank or card provider do not.

There's also the fact that anecdotally people are reporting different spend limits. On a thread I saw one person claim that £30 was their limit and another saying "My largest payment so far on the watch has been £275"

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#566

Post by EE84M3i »

freetime2 wrote: post #452
EE84M3i wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>although for cards that are backed by a credit card, I think the limit is higher I have a Suica thats integrated into a credit card, and it still has a ¥20,000 limit - the Suica balance is separate from the card balance, it just has a configurable auto top-up setting. Interestingly, if I'm out of the Suica zone, sometimes auto top-up won't trigger. If I recall correctly this happened to me once in Fukuoka, presumabl…

I was actually thinking of other non-transit e-money cards like iD and WAON (my fault that wasn't clear from my comment). For an iD card linked to an SMBC credit card, your iD spending limit is the same as your credit limit [1] - which can be upwards of ¥10M. I don't know how or why anybody would spend that much in iD transactions, but I bring it up because it shows that SMBC seemingly has as much trust in iD securit…

Yeah I think ID is basically a parallel protocol for charging credit/debit cards

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#567

Post by octo888 »

akmarinov wrote: post #541
octo888 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Co-branded (eg Amex KLM) and business cards were/are exempt from the interchange fee cap regulation. Though Amex are currently in dispute with the Netherlands who believe the caps do apply to them. I don't think a final judgement has been made yet.

Good luck with Amex in Europe - few places take it and after the 5-6 try, you just give up and get a normal card.

I've had very good luck with it the past 10 years. A few petrol stations in deep rural Spain didn't accept it, but that's all I can remember recently :-) They also have fantastic customer service

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#568

Post by lxgr »

raffraffraff wrote: post #565
lxgr wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mobile/wearable wallets are usually online-only, since you can add one card to many devices, so offline limits would be really painful to synchronize (or alternatively banks would be taking a big risk by allowing more than one or two devices and duplicating limits).

Indeed. But still, there must be some sort of "credit score" behind these devices. It can't just give money to a vendor. It must be based on some prior amount agreed between Garmin Pay and the bank or card provider. Take a debit card for example. It's connected to a bank account, and cannot give credit. Garmin must be taking some of the risk on board, since the bank or card provider do not. There's also the fact that…

Online only means just that: There’s no pre-agreed amount; the merchant POS terminal has to ask the issuer for authorization of any transaction amount, however small.

There can be other limits in place (like those controlling whether or not a PIN has to be entered), but those are on top of the requirement to obtain online approval from the issuing bank.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#569

Post by lbschenkel »

Findecanor wrote: post #361
renhanxue wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish and if someone insists on doing a transaction using cash when Swish or card is available, I'd immediately start to wonder if it's for some kind of more or less shady reason, probably tax evasion at the very least.

Swish uses the proprietary "BankID" system, and the company behind it has let frauds go on for years and blaming the victims. Therefore I have chosen not to support them. It didn't have proper two-factor authentication when you just had to tap a button on the smartphone to approve a log-in or a bank transfer (and users didn't always tell which was which). Now it requires reading a QR code — which it should have done…

I'm not an huge fan of BankID either, but a few corrections/clarifications:

1. BankID always allowed to have different settings for login and for signature. I have done that since forever. For example, I configured login to allow biometrics but not signature. If it's forcing me to enter the security code I know it is a signature, which forces me to pause. I cannot sign anything by mistake (like a transfer) because I'm forced to enter my long security code to complete it. And for the much more frequent scenario of pure logins, I can just use my finger.

2. I believe it does use the hardware-backed keychain if the device has one. I cannot prove it as the source code is not available, but I remember being curious and checking this on a rooted device.

Re: Offline card payments should be possible no later than 1 July 2026

#570

Post by lbschenkel »

0points wrote: post #162
Etheryte wrote: post #5

Some context might be useful here. I spent some time living Sweden not too long ago and Swedes practically don't use cash. It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal, to the point that most don't have any at all. Digital payments are very convenient and deeply integrated, so long as you have a local ID which allows you use the local payment system Swish etc. This worked nice…

> It's usually not said out loud, but cash is often considered to be dirty and criminal As a swede, your statement is outlandish and false. We use cash all of the time.

I'm living in Sweden for ~20 years.

I haven't used a banknote in more than 15 years. During this time I can't recall a single time I saw anyone using a banknote either.

Here in Malmö where I live, especially since COVID, you'll be searching more and more to find stores that take cash (besides supermarkets and kiosks and the like). I would say more than half of them don't accept cash any longer. Speaking of restaurants or pubs, my estimation would be that 2/3 have signs that say "no cash". Maybe more.

You can't do simple things as taking public transport if you want to pay by cash. You can't pay in the bus. You can't buy in the machine. It's all card or app only. You'll need to search around for an equivalent of a 7-11 kiosk to be able to buy a ticket using cash. Depending on where exactly you are when you need that, it may take as much walking than you wanted to save by taking public transport.

If you took a daily trip to the Danish side (Copenhagen) and need to come back home, I'm not even sure if it's possible to get back if you need to buy a ticket and only have cash on hand. Only Skånetrafiken sells that particular ticket and only via machines that don't take cash.

Handling cash became more expensive than taking card payments. It's also more complicated in terms of logistics and payments take longer. With this set of incentives, it's understandable why the shift happened.

Not saying I particularly like this development. Just reporting my anecdotal experience.

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