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ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

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Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#561

Post by palata »

daynthelife wrote: post #544
palata wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unless you want to scan all chat messages for potential signs of adults engaging in grooming of children too? Well, the point is to scan all messages, period. And then to detect those that come from predators, not adults. How often do parents convince their children to send... revealing pictures? Or to meet them somewhere? How often do parents introduce themselves to their children in messages? You can't seriously…

Sure, but who's reading the conversation to determine whether it "looks suspicious"? A regex? A neural network? Who decides the algorithm, and do you really can believe they won't ever change it to serve other more nefarious purposes like suppressing dissent?

> Who decides the algorithm, and do you really can believe they won't ever change it to serve other more nefarious purposes like suppressing dissent?

YES. That's the problem. Whoever controls it has that power. We don't want that. That's the argument against ChatControl: "imagine that those who get in power are against you, and imagine what they can do if they abuse this tool".

But saying that "a law enforcement officer may see a false-positive between a parent and their child and I find this insufferable" won't convince many people, IMHO.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#562

Post by palata »

Saline9515 wrote: post #391
sally_glance wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a non-sequitur to me. Yes, this is how it works - in every aspect of life we try to regulate as a society (through laws and enforcement). Criminal activities are prohibited, restricted and monitored. Criminals move on, but the law is also adaptive and soon catches on. Following your argument leads to anarchy and currently western society mostly shares the belief that we're better off with democracy.

No,the logical conclusion is that, on the contrary, liberal democracies end up as authoritarian legalist regimes, as they progressively need more and more laws and enforcement to catch criminals who evade them. You can see this clearly with the constant inflation of AML laws in the EU, which become more and more restrictive and invasive each year, without any clear effect.

The US does not feel like they are into adding regulations, would you say they are less likely to end up authoritarian?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#563

Post by palata »

array_key_first wrote: post #474
palata wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you can't. Be careful what you wish for. We could enforce client-side scanning on the OS. Everything that appears on the screen is scanned and reported. > If you sexually abuse children the hurdle to illegally running a non-backdoored messenger seems pretty low to me. How do you contact children on mainstream messengers if you can't use mainstream messengers? Not to mention that most people consuming CSAM are n…

> Not to mention that most people consuming CSAM are not technically savvy. It is known that such material goes through mainstream messengers. The reason is because it works. They're not stupid - they can use signal. The reality is that the privacy options not only exist, they're really good - often better and easier to use than the mainstream stuff. They will just pivot to other tools.

> How do you contact children on mainstream messengers if you can't use mainstream messengers?

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#564

Post by palata »

atoav wrote: post #524
palata wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you can't. Be careful what you wish for. We could enforce client-side scanning on the OS. Everything that appears on the screen is scanned and reported. > If you sexually abuse children the hurdle to illegally running a non-backdoored messenger seems pretty low to me. How do you contact children on mainstream messengers if you can't use mainstream messengers? Not to mention that most people consuming CSAM are n…

> Be careful what you wish for. We could enforce client-side scanning on the OS. Everything that appears on the screen is scanned and reported. Nope. Criminals can still just build their own devices with their own operating systems. We have existing OS without spying, people have them as ISO on their harddrives. You can't stop criminals from installing an old Lineage OS build. Legally you can't stop anybody from usin…

> Nope. Criminals can still just build their own devices

Haha sure. You over-estimate many of them. Not everyone breaking the law is a professional criminal. Especially when it comes to CSAM.

> Legally you can't stop anybody from using encrypted channels if they are motivate unless you go out and erase the knowledge.

ChatControl doesn't pretend to do this: they pretend to control mainstream social media, whether encrypted or not.

> It would be perfect to target small movements as they are emerging for example.

Yes, this is my problem with ChatControl: it's a powerful tool of surveillance that would be very dangerous if abused. We don't want to create that.

But "it's useless because criminals will compile their own kernel anyway" is an invalid argument. It doesn't help the cause.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#565

Post by Saline9515 »

palata wrote: post #415
Saline9515 wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the correct sentence would be that it kills the purpose of encryption. Which is to prevent anyone aside of the recipient from reading your message.

For the vast majority of people, the purpose of encryption is not to prevent a trusted law enforcement from reading the message. Say the police knocks at my door and asks me nicely to read my messages, I will show them. Doesn't mean I don't care about them being encrypted when I send them over the Internet.

Are we still having to discuss arguments such as "Why are you afraid? You should have nothing to hide!" in 2025 Yeah, safety measures are useless until you face a risky situation.

Also I don't care that "the vast majority of people" prefer Facebook chat to discuss online. That they are free to do so doesn't mean I shouldn't be free to preserve the secrecy of my communications.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#566

Post by Saline9515 »

palata wrote: post #562
Saline9515 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No,the logical conclusion is that, on the contrary, liberal democracies end up as authoritarian legalist regimes, as they progressively need more and more laws and enforcement to catch criminals who evade them. You can see this clearly with the constant inflation of AML laws in the EU, which become more and more restrictive and invasive each year, without any clear effect.

The US does not feel like they are into adding regulations, would you say they are less likely to end up authoritarian?

There are multiple ways to end up an authoritarian State. You can add many regulations, then have someone come to power and use those regulations to repress society (a good example would be Germany in 1937), or have a weakening of the institutions protecting citizen's rights, which is something the US is experiencing.

It has started before Trump, I think that a turning point was the Patriot Act, but Democrats didn't overturn it and picked their ennemies, too[0].

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#567

Post by Saline9515 »

palata wrote: post #413
Saline9515 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's ok if the database containing my nudes leaks, but not if it contains state secrets? I feel really protected!

Not saying that I agree, just saying that I can imagine it's not done in bad faith.

It's totally done in bad faith, corruption is a real thing in EU politics.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#568

Post by roarcher »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #425
txrx0000 wrote: post #287

Dear citizens of the EU: If this gets pushed through, you will gradually lose control of your government much like how the people of the UK already lost control of theirs. What are you going to do when the government's interests inevitably drift out of alignment with yours? Start a political movement? You will have the police knocking on your door for criticizing the establishment. Start a revolution? You have no wea…

> Start a revolution? You have no weapons. (...) You have neither the pen nor the sword. We still have Euros. As long as enough companies and rich folk are more on our side than theirs, the government still has some incentive to serve us. I know, I know - money and politics, wealth and power, they go together at the high end. But there is the oft forgotten long tail, the rich and powerful at the scale of a city, a ne…

Betting your freedom on the idea that corporations and the wealthy will side with the little guy instead of the powerful because some of them happen to live in the same city as you is, frankly, insane.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#569

Post by philipallstar »

ssdspoimdsjvv wrote: post #529
matheusmoreira wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software like PGP is easy to use Criminalize encryption. Oh you're using cryptograhy? Well then clearly you are a child molesting, money laundering, drug trafficking terrorist. No need to actually decrypt anything when cryptography is incriminating evidence unto itself. Computers are subversive. Cryptography alone can defeat police, judges, governments and militaries, and computers have democratized access to crypt…

How do you define cryptography? Let's say my files are written in a format that only my software can read. Is it then illegal to distribute said files?

A 75 year old EU judge will let you know.

Re: ChatControl: EU wants to scan all private messages, even in encrypted apps

#570

Post by Stegomalware »

palata wrote: post #322
meta-level wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, probably not - but those bad guys with all their child porn and terrorist plans won't mind the friction (those will either encrypt or become EU politicians).

You would be surprised. I mean, look at how many technically savvy people use Telegram and think it is "safe". Ever heard of top government officials mistakenly inviting a journalist in a group sharing top secret information?

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